really light green

Helped Yoshi through the night until I was just too tired (vets were closed). When I woke up early that morning he was way too far gone, I didn't want him to suffer through an attempt at rehibilitation, had him euthanized. When I bought him from petco the vet I took him to told me he had MBD before I had owned him, and thats when I was issued the calcium supplement. He was on it all his life but his condition never really got back to perfection. I had just got off work when my Dad told me he looked bad and thats when I found him that night. It appeared that he had taken a fall. (Edit) Not going to get another chameleon, at least not for a long long time. I definetly wasn't ready for this. You guys are right though, I rushed into something I wasn't ready for and I am going to try to learn from this experience and try raising a more basic reptile, and maybe one day work my skills up enough to raise a chameleon.
 
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I almost yakked when I read all the posts about the yakking....and I almost decided just to avoid this thread because of it....except that its bugging me.

Is a forum not a place to come for help and information and interchange of ideas? If we turn people away from the forum because we are critical of what they are doing (even if it isn't what we deem acceptable, even if they don't understand or make the changes we suggest, etc.) how have we helped the animal? Have we stopped anyone from buying another chameleon and making the same mistakes because they didn't learn, because they were turned away from the forum and not helped? Have we set a tone that will encourage "lurkers" to join the forum and ask questions that they need answered for the good of the chameleon?

Although I find it somewhat tedious to have to keep repeating the same information over and over, I continue to do so because the alternatives are not going to help most people...nor the chameleons that they bought.

If we send the person off to search for information on the forum or in the archives...maybe they will figure out what the correct information is as they read through all the bad sites along with the good...but maybe they won't.

Just my 2 cents worth...

Kazza...you said..."i just hope i haven't been a burden asking all of the "usual novice" questions"...I would rather you ask a question that requires that I have to give you information that I have given before than to have you not have asked. When I first started keeping chameleons there was nobody to ask...so if any answers I'm able to give help, I'm glad.

Ottik...Sorry for your loss.
You said..."When I bought him from petco the vet I took him to told me he had MBD before I had owned him"...did the vet discuss MBD with you so that you could make sure that it would be corrected and not recur?

You said..."I am going to try to learn from this experience and try raising a more basic reptile, and maybe one day work my skills up enough to raise a chameleon"...good idea! I'm sure you will someday get back to a chameleon!

Before you get another reptile it would be a good idea to learn about its husbandry (and about MBD because it can occur in many different kinds of reptiles).

Here are some good sites with good chameleon information to begin with...
http://adcham.com/
http://www.chameleonnews.com/
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm
 
kinyonga said:
I almost yakked when I read all the posts about the yakking....and I almost decided just to avoid this thread because of it....except that its bugging me.

Is a forum not a place to come for help and information and interchange of ideas? If we turn people away from the forum because we are critical of what they are doing (even if it isn't what we deem acceptable, even if they don't understand or make the changes we suggest, etc.) how have we helped the animal? Have we stopped anyone from buying another chameleon and making the same mistakes because they didn't learn, because they were turned away from the forum and not helped? Have we set a tone that will encourage "lurkers" to join the forum and ask questions that they need answered for the good of the chameleon?
Click to expand...

Wow, I almost feel like a chastised child. I almost didn't respond to this, but.. well.. it bugs me.

Of course a forum is a place to come for help and information and an interchange of ideas.

Let me point out this keeper's description of his/her animal. Its TONGUE was hanging out. What tone are we supposed to set, Kinyonga? A loving, supporting environment for the idiot keeper who didn't value his or her animal enough to take it to the vet WEEKS or MONTHS ago?!? How, exactly, could an even somewhat attentive keeper not notice illness to that extreme? This animal did not just wake up that morning with severe MBD.

How about we set the tone that the chameleon is a treasure? That, regardless of whether it is a veiled that costs $35.00 or a parsonii that costs $2500.00, none of their lives are expendible. It is against the law in many states to not take your injured or ill dog to the vet, but reptiles? Even the enthusiasts and admirers are supposed to support the keeper who allows their animal to get into such a sorry ass condition?

What possible good could we provide for this keeper? When a vet was suggested (and an emergency one was definately needed ASAP, although it was probably already months too late) the response from the keeper was that he saw that the casque was extremely rubbery and his jaw was really weak, and that he was going to go mix vitamins and sugar water for the chameleon. This keeper knew his/her animal was sick. This keeper had known for some time, and hadn't done anything about it until its tongue was hanging out. Note that the first question was about color, not tongue. Personally, the tongue would have been a pretty good indication to me that the chameleon was ill.

I am sorry that you don't approve. Let me make this blunt. I will not be understanding and kind to people who withhold proper care for their animals. Ignorance is one thing.. THIS scenario is another. This was animal abuse, the most disgusting form. That chameleon suffered for months before it finally, thankfully, was able to die and end its pain.

Heika
 
Kazza...you said..."i just hope i haven't been a burden asking all of the "usual novice" questions"...I would rather you ask a question that requires that I have to give you information that I have given before than to have you not have asked. When I first started keeping chameleons there was nobody to ask...so if any answers I'm able to give help, I'm glad.
Click to expand...

Thanx Kinyonga, I do feel like i'm pestering with already answered questions though. I now know how to use this forum properly and keep flicking back through previous threads. I will keep asking though if i need a bit more info than what's already been given.

Thankyou to everyone who has helped me ;)

It is quite upsetting to read these posts where a chameleon is in obvious need of veterinary attention and the owner is asking questions here on what they should do.
Do you have emergency out of hours vets in the States? We do in the UK, so if my cham ever got ill or injured i can take her for treatment whatever time it is.
My personal opinion would be to take the cham to the vet, get it treated, then come and ask questions - i am open to criticism though :p
 
Kazza said..."It is quite upsetting to read these posts where a chameleon is in obvious need of veterinary attention and the owner is asking questions here on what they should do"...it most certainly is. I do not condone it. I realize that when I said..."If we turn people away from the forum because we are critical of what they are doing " it was not clear what I meant.
 
I understood what you meant, and admittedly i started off doing things "the pet store" way because i didn't know any different and by asking questions on here i have now got a much better understanding of my chameleons needs.
I should've studied keeping chameleons way before i bought one - i went into the store for a snake as my knowledge of keeping them is much greater ( i've never owned one just read into it ). I saw the veiled's they were selling and fell in love so i asked the assistant about how to keep them, he told me it was easy - turns out he told me a load of bull.
So there'll be a lot of people like me out there who just need a nudge in the right direction and will keep asking the same "already answered" questions, then there's the people who seem to ignore advice and are looking for a cheap "quick fix" therefore making their chameleon suffer un-necessarily.
Everyone on here has some great advise to give out and are really helping those who want to be helped - keep up the good work guys :D

Sorry about the essay :p
 
The right thing to do is let people know they screwed up and if they screwed up badly and it was preventable then I am going to let them have it. If they can’t take the criticism and leave the forum then they have no business keeping a chameleon in the first place and that type of attitude/mentality would probably kill the cham anyways. You have to have thick skin and be a “go getter” with this hobby and that’s that. Anything half-ass doesn’t suffice.

What would help shed some light on my “initiative” lately is the fact that I consider all life equal. I don’t differentiate a chams life from a human. So if I got in a car drunk and killed someone b/c of it then our society would punish me and I would go to jail. No one would be rubbing my back saying “ah … roo … it’s ok you didn’t mean it”.

So of course Ottick didn’t intend to kill his chameleon but his lack of research certainly had something to do with it … if not the primary reason. So I’m sorry, I am not going to do any hand holding when it comes to the lives of a chameleon. I’m also not doing any name calling or passing complete judgment against these keepers. We all make mistakes and we all should be held accountable for them.

I am not trying to turn anyone away or anything negative like that. People who will receive my flavor of criticism are the ones who currently have a chameleon and haven’t done the proper research and/or are neglecting them. People who say “well the pet store said it was ok” aren’t going to get any leniency either. When making a purchase … whether it be a cham, car, motheborad for your PC – whatever. It’s absolutely prudent to research multiple sources. Taking one persons word for it just isn’t acceptable.

If you come here asking questions, doing research prior to getting a cham I am not going to jump down your throat for asking questions. I may get annoyed if you don’t use the search feature but I wouldn’t get testy with you. Sometimes you just need to ask the question and that's ok.

Sure there are some negative aspects to my approach but I refuse play the politically correct BS game – no way.

-roo
 
kinyonga said:
Is a forum not a place to come for help and information and interchange of ideas? If we turn people away from the forum because we are critical of what they are doing (even if it isn't what we deem acceptable, even if they don't understand or make the changes we suggest, etc.) how have we helped the animal? Have we stopped anyone from buying another chameleon and making the same mistakes because they didn't learn, because they were turned away from the forum and not helped? Have we set a tone that will encourage "lurkers" to join the forum and ask questions that they need answered for the good of the chameleon?
Click to expand...
I know this is old but: I just want to say this was beautifuly worded when I was reading the other people replies I felt dumb and embarrassed bc I had been asking questions earlier this week. I agree with u.
 
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This is an interesting thread to bring up. It is basically testosterone vs estrogen, chameleon forum edition. It seems a time before society went completely PC.

In all seriousness, I think you brought up a great point @kinyonga. They seemed to jump the gun a bit. People like to talk research and vets blah blah, but the truth is some people, especially back then, are/were not aware of things. I didn't even know a vet would see reptiles until I was a teenager and found one for my leopard gecko lol. I didn't know there were forums until I came across reefcentral for my saltwater hobby. Some people just don't know... only once I've been sure that the person is a jackass, stubborn ******* do I rip into them. Otherwise, no matter how dumb it seems, it's more beneficial to chameleons/animals to be patient with people and make them feel welcome. There is a time to be a hardass and a time to be soft and understanding. Imo that is the best way to be.
 
jamest0o0 said:
This is an interesting thread to bring up. It is basically testosterone vs estrogen, chameleon forum edition. It seems a time before society went completely PC.

In all seriousness, I think you brought up a great point @kinyonga. They seemed to jump the gun a bit. People like to talk research and vets blah blah, but the truth is some people, especially back then, are/were not aware of things. I didn't even know a vet would see reptiles until I was a teenager and found one for my leopard gecko lol. I didn't know there were forums until I came across reefcentral for my saltwater hobby. Some people just don't know... only once I've been sure that the person is a jackass, stubborn ******* do I rip into them. Otherwise, no matter how dumb it seems, it's more beneficial to chameleons/animals to be patient with people and make them feel welcome. There is a time to be a hardass and a time to be soft and understanding. Imo that is the best way to be.
Click to expand...
Agree
 
Heika had a great point though and I 100% agree, we should set the standard, chameleons should be treasured. Chameleons require daily PRECISE tedious care. Most aren't capable of it unless they did their due diligence or have somebody holding their hand in the process.

I've been here for some time, not as long as others but the time I've spent here Iven learned to understand how frustrating it is seeing some noob keeper create a chameleon forums account to burden us with their dying pet.

And in this case , the man was offered valid advice and he simply didn't care enough to take action in time.

they come for answers, they end up not liking the answers they get , then give up on the very thing we all adore, love and call our passion because they simply didn't care enough or as much as we do.

I find this disrespectful, but this is just my perspective.
 
Inky said:
Heika had a great point though and I 100% agree, we should set the standard, chameleons should be treasured. Chameleons require daily PRECISE tedious care. Most aren't capable of it unless they did their due diligence or have somebody holding their hand in the process.

I've been here for some time, not as long as others but the time I've spent here Iven learned to understand how frustrating it is seeing some noob keeper create a chameleon forums account to burden us with their dying pet.

And in this case , the man was offered valid advice and he simply didn't care enough to take action in time.

they come for answers, they end up not liking the answers they get , then give up on the very thing we all adore, love and call our passion because they simply didn't care enough or as much as we do.

I find this disrespectful, but this is just my perspective.
Click to expand...
I agree that there are some that are to ignorant to listen to advice the thing I didn’t agree with others was that … I can’t word it right but how they don’t like people asking so many questions
 
Green Dino said:
I know this is old but: I just want to say this was beautifuly worded when I was reading the other people replies I felt dumb and embarrassed bc I had been asking questions earlier this week. I agree with u.
Click to expand...

I was going to reply and say this same thing to @kinyonga. I totally understand being frustrated but this thread made me grateful for the compassion the forums seem to have now. I couldn’t imagine being that person asking for help and getting met with the replies they received.
 
Me either! I would have run away and hide for shame because I would have felt it was all my fault. I know we get a lot of young kids with pet chameleons that could give a hoot about them that rush on here with a huge dilemma and as soon as you give them advice they never answer back Because it wasn’t what they wanted to hear but you just never know when it might be a person seriously concerned with their chameleon sincerely looking for accurate care advice that maybe was taught all wrong about proper care through no fault of their own. If I had been met with that the day I came on here asking about care for a Jackson’s Cham I had just rescued from petco, you would have never heard from me again and I wouldn’t have learned a thing and Eustis might have been put in jeopardy because of it! I’m glad it has changed for the better.
 
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