Reptivite vs. Herptivite

[ChameleonMom]

Can someone tell me what the difference is between the two products? Thanks!

Damn! Sorry, posted this in the wrong forum. Any tips for moving it?

 

[jannb]

Reptivite has A in it and you can get it with or without C. You need a little A for your chams. It might help Camo's eyes.

 

[ChameleonMom]

Okaaaay...so now I'm really confused I have been giving my chams Herptivite w/Beta Carotene, which reads:

"Herptivite is the FIRST reptile without Vitamin A. Instead, we use Beta Carotene which is an anti-oxidant that is converted into Vitamin A in a regulated way so there is no threat of Vitamin A toxicity."

I have recently changed my cham's supplement's and supplement schedule, due to my male veiled Camo having some issues with gout. I was advised by my vet this was due to over-supplementation (yup, guilty as charged - I was supplementing him every 2 days with Calcium w/D3 AND Herptivite!) and to cut back to supplementing him once a week and to keep him super-hydrated. I had not EVER given him straight calcium, until I read some info on this site. Of course I immediately ran out and bought some Rep-Cal Calcium w/out phosphorous (but now I see the calcium I bought is for reptiles raised under natural sunlight conditions - which both my chams are NOT - damn! Is this going to matter?) and I have changed the supplement schedule to Calcium at every feeding, Calcium w/D3 twice a month and Herptivite once a month. I was hoping this was going to help but now I'm still not sure these are the right products for my chams AND...I haven't seen a vast improvement on the size of swelling of Camo's back ankles, although he is moving and climbing ALOT more since the change and seems happier. *sigh* I hate to think my big guy is in pain.

Aaaaargh! The supplement issue is my biggest issue when it comes to my chams. Any suggestions to improve/change what I'm doing now or any words of wisdom would be appreciated.

Grrrr@me!

 

[jannb]

My vet highly recommends some vit A. I'll attach a few of his blog entries below. I use calcium without D at about every other feeding for adults and with D twice a month and a multi with A once or twice a month.
http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2011/07/vitamin-a-supplement/
http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2012/09/vitamin-a-deficiencies-strike-again/

 

[ChameleonMom]

Thanks Jann, I will go read those now.

 

[jannb]

Thanks Jann, I will go read those now.

You are welcome. He has allot of great info in his blog when you get a chance to read it.

 

[ataraxia]

Heres a good link. it doesnt have herptivite listed but does have other supplements.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/174-whats-supplements-brand.html

 

[kinyonga]

Hopefully ferret (Dayna) or Dr.O will correctness kg I'm wrong but gout is often the result of the chameleon not being able to deal with the build up of uric acid in its system like due to kidney issues caused by too much D3 maybe in conjunction with lack of hydration. I don't know what part vitamin A plays in it.

All I can tell you about gout is that in all my years of keeping chameleons I have only had one or two develop it...and I've used rep-call calcium at most feedings and reproduction-call calcium with D3 twice a month lightly and herptivite lightly twice a month....as well as feeding/gutloading the crickets, etc with veggies and greens.

 

[ChameleonMom]

Kinyonga I am going to assume then the gout in my Camo is the cause of too much D3 as I was dusting his feeders with RepCal Calcium w/D3 at every feeding, which in Camo's case is every 2 days. I have been keeping chams since 2007 but everything I read at that time advised Cal w/D3 and Herptivite at every feeding. It was only when I came here that I found out Calcium without D/3 was required daily and the others only intermittently throughout the month. I adjusted my supps when I realised my mistake (since July) and while I have seen some improvement with Camo, he's more active and climbing more, but his ankles are still really fat!

I'm just wondering now if I should get some Reptivite (or Repashy w/Vit A) and replace the Herptivite....?

 

[fluxlizard]

I am going to assume then the gout in my Camo is the cause of too much D3

Careful about assuming. too much d3 isn't the only cause. I didn't even know it was a cause.

I have used lots of rep-cal with d3 over the years (practically every feeding for years back in the 90s) and the only cham with gout that I've ever had came to me that way and was a fresh imported melleri...

I've used herptivite and reptivite- my preference is for reptivite personally.

 

[Hoj]

I personally perfer the reptivite but many great keepers use the herptivite as well.
peaking in anther and veileds that is.
I have found that the vit A is benifical for my chams. esp, the eyes and tounge.

The discussion here could go on and on and it has before lol
If you arereally interested do a search on vitamin A

 

[sandrachameleon]

Can someone tell me what the difference is between the two products? Thanks!

Here is the difference:
Rep-Cal Herptivite
per kg: Vitamin E 5500 IU; Choline 440mg; Niacin 3300mg; Inositol 2530mg; Asorbit Acid (vit C) 2200mg; Thiamin (Vitb1) 1100mg; Riboflavin (vit B2) 550mg; Beta Carotene (safe form of Vit A) 440mg; d-pantothenic Acid 330mg; Folic Acid 33mg; menadione 22mg; Vitamin B12 4mg; Biotin .44mg; Various Amino Acids; Calcium 22000mg; Phosphorus 11000mg; Salt 1320mg; Magnesium 99mg; Potassium 1650mg; Sulfur 5500mg; Copper 165ppm; Iodine 38ppm; Iron 3850ppm; Maganese 330ppm; Zinc 330ppm.
Zoo Med Reptivite with D3 (there is also a no D3 version)
Guaranteed Analysis (minimum amounts)Vitamins: Per Lb. (454 gm)Vitamin A (Fish Liver Oil) 100,000 I.U.Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) 10,400 I.U.Vitamin E (dl-Alpha Tocopherol Acetate )100 I.U.Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) 1400.00 mg.Folic Acid 48.00 Mg.Vitamin B1 (Thiamine HCl )75.20 mg.Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) 124.80 mg.Niacin 300.00 mg.Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCl) 30.40 mg.Vitamin B12 (Cyanocobalamine) 3040.00 mcg.Biotin 12,000.00 mcg.Pantothenic Acid (Dicalcium Pantothenate) 849.60 mg.Minerals and Electrolytes:Calcium (Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate)(21.2%) 96.00 gm.Phosphorus (Dicalcium Phosphate) (10.6%) 48.00 gm.Iodine (Kelp) (.0002%) 960.00 mcg.Iron (Ferrous Fumerate) (.045%) 200.00 mg.Magnesium (Oxide) (.26%) 1200.00 mg.Copper (Sulfate ) (.045%) 200.00 mg.Manganese (Carbonate) (.0077%) 35.20 mg.Sodium (Chloride) (1.63% )7400.00 mg.Zinc (Oxide) (.045%) 200.00 mg.Potassium (Chloride) (1.76% )8000.00 mg.Amino Acids: L-Glutamine 32.0 mg., L-Arginine 52.8 mg., Isoleucine 10.7 mg., Lysine 52.8 mg., L-Leucine 52.8 mg., L-Alanine 20.8 mg., L-Cystine 32.0 mg., L-Phenylalanine 10.7 mg., L-Serine 10.7 mg., L-Threonine 20.8 mg., L-Tryptophan 20.8 mg., L-Tyrosine 20.8 mg., L-Valine 20.8 mg., Glycine 42.7 mg., L-Methionine 20.8 mg., L-Aspartic Acid 52.8 mg., L-Glutamic Acid 148.8 mg., L-Histidine 10.7 mg.

BOTH are good products. Some people feel the need for including preformed vitamin A, either via supplement or otherwise. Herptivite doesnt provide it, which allows you to add it if and how you need it separately. Reptivite does have preformed vitamin A, so you have to be careful not to over-do it.

The most important supplement is a phosphorous and vitamin free calcium powder. So the rep-cal product you went out and got is FINE.

more info about supplementing:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blog_search.php?do=searchresults&searchid=4253

And if you feed your chameleon a Wide variety of WELL gutloaded prey, your need for supplementation is reduced: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html

 

[ChameleonMom]

If you arereally interested do a search on vitamin A

Hahaha...easier said than done! I have been reading about Vitamin A since Jann posted a link to her Vet's blog (at 5pm!) and I'm not sure if I'm clear or even more confused. (GREAT info BTW Jann, thanks!) I HAVE come to the conclusion that supplementing is almost a personal choice but I hesitate to now 'play' with it as I don't want to harm Camo while trying to find the perfect balance to help him with his gout.

Sandra, I am going to read your links now but a quick question. If I decide to stay with the Herptivite can I add in a drop of preformed Vit A every 14 days as well, even though the Herptivite has Beta Carotene which is converted to Vit A, once ingested? Do you think there would be a chance of overdosing?

Now with this 'new to me' Vitamin A information I am leaning toward a deficiency as the cause of my guy's eye problems as well. Could this be possible and not just an eye infection gone wrong?

 

[fluxlizard]

Now with this 'new to me' Vitamin A information I am leaning toward a deficiency as the cause of my guy's eye problems as well. Could this be possible and not just an eye infection gone wrong?

Yes- after reading some pretty strong anti vit a advice here on the forums by some pretty vocal experts, I tried going vit a free a couple of years ago with a pair of baby panther chameleons. This was in spite of a negative panther egg incubation experience (horrible hatch rate) after switching to herptivite when it first came onto the market years ago. Because others here are using it successfully so I figured I'd give it a try again thinking maybe the egg experience was coincidental.

Within several months, my female showed what I thought was an infection. I tried a good antibiotic eye ointment for a couple weeks with no luck (vet provided- I have vets in my family and others as friends). Finally I decided to go with my gut and stop the ointment and give her a drop of vit a from a gel-cap every couple of days for a few times. The "infection" cleared up after a few doses.

I'm back on reptivite. I see a fair amount of problems here on the forums regularly (eyes, tongue, mbd, crooked casques, chameleon falling) that get posted for help that are probably related to too little a and/or d3.

From 1992 to 1999 I produced quite a few (thousands) of panthers and veileds and occasionally a number of other species. I used rep-cal with d3 each feeding, 1x per week I used reptivite. My father and I necropsied many of my breeders as they passed away during those years. It wasn't the sort where we sent stuff off to the lab, but we had a pretty good look-see around inside most of them (should say my father was a vet with a PHD who worked in a research/teaching setting).

We never found any evidence of too much d3 or vit a in spite of this schedule which would be considered a *lot* by today's standards here on the forums. Of course rep-cal only sticks for a short time and I generally feed enough to last a couple of days in the terraria- so a significant portion of my lizards diet have little to no supplement by the time it is consumed. Still...

Recently I also came across the website of a panther chameleon breeder who had been using reptivite as their only supplement on a schedule of every couple feedings and no other supplement after consulting about the product with zoo-med. They were experiencing great success after at least a few years of this schedule and multi-generations. I've no experience with this schedule myself so I am not endorsing it, but I think it does provide a little more evidence that possibly the worry about d3 and a (this product has both) is sometimes taken a little too far.

My feeling is people worry too much about oversupplementation. I'm not saying do what I did, but there is a happy medium that can be easily and reasonably found through regular occasional use that lies somewhere between anxiety about any vit a or vit d being used on the one hand and using it every meal on the other hand that will get the job done without overdose...

I'm not saying vit a and d free cannot be done- hats off to those who can pull it off without problems- only that it is more difficult and unnecessary.

What I just wrote above is intended for non-montaine, heat loving species. Cool species are a bit more sensitive.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Sandra, I am going to read your links now but a quick question. If I decide to stay with the Herptivite can I add in a drop of preformed Vit A every 14 days as well, even though the Herptivite has Beta Carotene which is converted to Vit A, once ingested? Do you think there would be a chance of overdosing?

Wont OD on beta carotene, and no one will give you a straight answer on how much preformed Vit A is too much.


A drop can be quite a lot

Many people believe that chameleons, or at least some types of chameleons, do not convert (or at least not efficiently) carotene to vitamin A. That's why people add it.
Crickerts most likely do not convert either. Other bugs we're not sure about - at least I've not seen any info about it.

I raised healthy breeding long-lived panthers for over a decade without using any preformed vitamin A. HOWEVER I also use a wide variety of feeders, well gutloaded.