sexing melleri

[Chameleoco]

I have been looking into mellers chameleons, and am confused! I have been told that to sex them is very difficult, but one way is to check behind the flaps on the head/neck for any black spots. an absence of spots indicating female.
I then went to a local aquatic center where they have two mellers living in a large enclosure. One is much bigger than the other and i had assumed the smaller would be the female, but when i got them out to have a look for the "spots" neither chameleon had any!
Is this technique a made up technique, or are both these mellers female?
Please help me out, its driving me mad!

 

[Pure]

There isn't any visual way to sex them. You either have to probe them (bad/dangerous) have them looked at with a sonogram, Xray their pelvis, or just keep an eye on how they behave toward each other. Even then that's not a solid way to tell. Males don't always act male(ish). My 2 interact all the time and so far I can't see any male/female behavior. A couple of members have noticed that with males sometimes you can see the hemipenis when he poops. The trick is catching them in the act. It's been almost 3 months and I have yet to see my guys poop. They will be going in for an xray soon. I've been dragging my feet about it as I 'm worried about one of my guys and haven't wanted to stress him more than I have to.

There will always be (experts) who claim they can sex them and plenty of other difficult animals based on observation, and visible cues. But really it's not much more than an educated guess. And sometimes it's blatant BS.

 

[Chameleoco]

Thank you! I thought as much, i guess this is the reason why mellers are so very rarely bred successfully in captivity, it takes long enough to work out if you have two of opposite sexes!

 

[Eric Adrignola]

The one that climbs on top is usually a male. The one that gets fat and lays eggs is always a female. The only other, visual way you can be sure of sex is to watch them closely when they defacate. Males will sometimes (often, actually) every their hemipenes when defacatign, they look like little black ballons on the sides of the vent.

This was clear in my 12 month old CH (whom I suspected ofbeing a male, as he was a little bastard to my big male). The other one, which I SUSPECTED to be a female - by its much much more relaxed demeanor towards my adult male - has never shown its hemepenes during defacation.

 

[Chameleoco]

so, can mellers live together, I have seen a two pairs of mellers recently and they have been housed two to an enclosure, I am guessing that if the sexing of mellers is so hard, that the pet shops might just be putting two in an enclosure that they think must be opposite sexes? Is this detremental? I also have heard that it takes around 18 months for courtship, is this true?
I dont think I will be thinking of aquiring mellers any time soon, but it is interesting to find out!

 

[Pure]

Short answer is yes they can.

Longer answer is, it's done with caution. Some will get along but still need constant observation to ensure territorial issues don't start. Wile some just want to be nasty to any other one they see. A good number of members here keep them together. Myself and Eric being 2 of them.

Thank you! I thought as much, i guess this is the reason why mellers are so very rarely bred successfully in captivity, it takes long enough to work out if you have two of opposite sexes!

Well it's a little more complicated than that. Even if you have a known male and known female. One may not find the other attractive as a possible mate. Even if they get along. It's been reported that ones that bred one yr did nothing the next. It's hit or miss. And from what I gather not much has been done in the way of researching environmental cues to help trigger breeding. So that is possibly an answer to a large part of the difficulty around breeding these guys..

 

[kinyonga]

I believe Kristina Francis of Meller's Discovery could sex them and its been posted somewhere about it...but I can't remember where. Sorry. They can also be sexed by endoscopy...but its expensive.

 

[Pure]

Kristina uses or has used Xray for positive sexing. She didn't mention to me any visual cues in our emails on the subject. I would guess that she like Eric has kept them long enough, and kept her particular animals long enough, to be able to make an educated guess based on interaction between known sexed animals with unknown sex animals.

 

[summoner12]

I believe Kristina Francis of Meller's Discovery could sex them and its been posted somewhere about it...but I can't remember where. Sorry. They can also be sexed by endoscopy...but its expensive.

I think she has said she can't tell by any distinct traits... like males have spurs sorta thing. I think she has said this on the site... but i'd have to read it again. \

It is hard to tell I mean... I feel like I can tell one or the other..... but I have really no idea, its more of a gut feeling. I have always thought lenny was female... just a gut feeling... took her to the vet... he said most likely a male..... one month later she laid 50+ eggs.........

Henry I am pretty sure is Male.... but don't really know for sure. My only proof is from watching him use the john, like Nick Barta said.

I personally think the white dots are a trait of males....

Kristina has a confirmed male and his coloring is the same as Henry... maybe its old age?

Here he is pretty relaxed and you still see white... in the above photo he was showing very very mild stress dots (the black spots)

 

[kinyonga]

Here it is....
http://www.melleridiscovery.com/index.html
"A new and harmless sexing method is the "profile of the cloaca-tail underline". This method is still being tested, we do not yet know if it is universal. Females tend to have a lip on the back (posterior) edge of the cloaca. Females also may have prominent hips, no matter how ideal their condition and weight. Males have either no edge protruding (juvenile or off season) or have an enlarged front lip to the cloaca and enlarged hemipenal bulges (breeding season)"

 

[SoCaliSon]

First off I just wanted to say threads like this are a perfect example of what a great resource this forum is... A newer keeper came on with fairly basic and but relevant questions... and received a lot of really great info in return. Not only that but they have been pointed to another really great source of info on these chams. It gets me all warm and fuzzy inside...

Secondly, I am interested in the Xray method of sexing. From my experience X rays aren't that expensive, and I would think if I was a melleri owner that I would go ahead and do that just to know. I X Rayed my cat and it was less than $100. Haven't had to x ray any herps yet, thankfully, but I am curious if anyone knows what it runs on average?

 

[kinyonga]

I know of at least one Meller's that was sexed by an x-ray...but then it was female and the eggs were visible. In any female chameleons that I've seen x-rays of if there are eggs there they are quite visible. It seems that follicles are also fairly easy to see. Sometimes its hard to determine if there are eggs or follicles involved. I don't know if the sex of a male is easily seen or not...or if a female could be sexed if she were not producing follicles or eggs.

 

[summoner12]

I believe an X-ray from Greek is less than $80 and more than $60... When I brought henry and lenny in to have Greek look at them I asked if an X-ray would be a good idea for determining sex..... then he told me the price.... which sorta talked me out of it, but then he even talked me out of it saying it isn't a good route, unless you think there are eggs present. I think that is really all you can use as a determining factor, eggs.

I had Henry X-rayed to have his joints looked at. It was a digital machine... so he pulled the image up on the computer in the exam room.... I thought to ask for a copy, but didn't. I wonder if they keep the image around on file. I am gonna give them a call and ask about getting a copy.

 

[Chameleoco]

First off I just wanted to say threads like this are a perfect example of what a great resource this forum is... A newer keeper came on with fairly basic and but relevant questions... and received a lot of really great info in return. Not only that but they have been pointed to another really great source of info on these chams. It gets me all warm and fuzzy inside...

Me too, Mellers are really interesting and finding info is really hard, i have been back again this morning to see the mellers again at the aquatic centre (while I was there i also took a very poorly baby veiled home, but thats for a different thread) and while they are both very different sizes, they dont posses any dinstinctively different traits, (that i can see) and are both as dominent as each other from what I can see.
The info is great and im off to scan the links you guys have provided and return an expert!!!!

btw not a new keeper, just dont have mellers!

 

[bifidus]

To probe them is not difficult. When done with correct instrument and GENTLY than it will not damage animal, for sure. Truth is that it needs to be exercised on other reptiles (I suggest start with snakes) but do not worry after few hundreds it will be no problem anymore. In principe if you have no experience you need ask help by somebody experiences. In USA they are learning you that it is sometingh difficult so you need pay for Xray, etc. Here in Europe many experienced breeder can do it perfectly. Same palpating, althoug I never tried it by mellers but by snakes is works perfectly.

The only problem is that you need have 2 opposite sex from same animal or lot of experience with species. You will see little difference by same sex but only if you have opposite you are 100% sure that "this is another coffee".

Difficult problem is probing just by some animals with tail autothomy. Probing Abronia is quite adventure.

Another technique is with led lamp - this works wonderful by monitors of correct size, many agamas, but again I do not have melleri so I can not test it. Somebody with known meller pair try it and tell us if it works.

 

[Pure]

It's been reported that permanent damage to the hemipenis is more of a risk with chameleons. From what I've gathered their hemipenis is more fragile than other herps. The animal must be completely restrained and really the only way to do this is by anesthesia. Another very risky venture when dealing with herps. Melleri in particular are hard enough to get acclimated, most won't risk such a procedure with an animal that could basically make you need to find and start over with a new animal.

Also you aren't looking for eggs with an X-ray. It's certainly a bonus if you see them. And sometimes the ovaries are visible to some degree. But the shape of the pelvis is the key. I need to look at my notes, but one or the other sexes has a more pronounce or protruding bone structure in the pelvis bone.

 

[bifidus]

I did it with many chameleons /hundreds, may be thousand/ many of those I bred sucesfully so no damage. I did it by few melleri but those were not mine, I never bred this species. I did it by lot of young parsonii, oshaughnessyi, globifer. Nobody never reported any problem. Did I damage some of them? I do not know, may be, I can not prove that I did not. But I expect by damage to observe blooding - what happened very few times when I started 30 years ago (not by chameleons, I simple tried it by too difficult for beginner small species).

In anasthesia - no way. You can not risk your animal - it is even safer operate your animal without any chemical anaesthesia just cooled.
20-30 years ago was not available anything safe, we were operating just by cold anesthesia. And results were comparable with todays.

You need know how to fix. If you are experienced you need just 10 may be 15 seconds for sexing. If the animal is "too hectic moving" or too strong simple put it to cold place for short time. 15 seconds of violence can not be any major stress problem, it is unproper long term keeping what stress them.

That it is dangerous is done by somebody who does not know it properly or has own reasons why it not possible. I will happily probe my animals at any moment. OK, I torn off few dozen autothomy tails, specially by some desert lacertids, but this is problem by any manipulation with them.

There is size problem - too small can not be sexed. But something like lateralis no problem. Campani - still no problem, but adult.
Brookesia - they are simple too small.

In general you need correct sized probe and you need to be handy. It is for somebody who is capable well do mikromanipulations not for folds with thick fingers. But it is not as difficult or dangerous like want somebody (in principe vet community) tell to breeders community.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

My friend Pete had a method of sexing melleri with probes. It's on the melleridiscovery, but I don't think anyone else has had the balls to try it.

 

[summoner12]

I think there are a few ways to do many things... but not all of them are a great idea. For most people, the route to take, is the less risky. since most of us are just keepers i don't think there is enough reason to risk your animal just to know its sex. networking with locals who have melleri to arrange a visit to see how the two animals will react.. or to examine another animal for comparison sounds a bit more safe to me.

Greek told me you won't see much on the X-ray unless, like Pure said, your looking at bone structure (or eggs). I think he did mention you might see some type of organ, I forget exactly what he meant or said.... but that it was pretty hard and not really worth it. but, then again you need to compare that X-ray to another... so unless there is an archive around for keepers to look at....... I don't know how reliable it would be.

Just sit back and enjoy your melleri. if you have two, let them hang out and see how they 'play'. observation is the best part of this hobby (aside from building stuff and projects )

 

[Pure]

I'm not saying it's not possible. i also wasn't questioning your ability to do it. I was simply pointing out that most people will not take the risk. But the fact that you "may have damaged some" is enough of a reason to not do it. Like I said they are hard enough to get acclimated and clean of parasites. If a mistake is made (even the most experienced person can make a mistake) your animal will no longer be viable for breeding.

I did it with many chameleons /hundreds, may be thousand

I do wonder what species of cham you have done this to thousands of times, as most can be sexed by sexual dimorphism. Again not questioning you or what you are saying. I'm just curious what species you are working with on such a grand scale.

Any way you look at it, it is a risky way of sexing. Also under no circumstances should it be attempted by the common hobbyist. Most do not know enough about this to be able to say what is the right size for the probe or how much pressure is a safe amount. So then by the time you take the animal to the vet to be probed you might as well spend the extra 20+ bucks to do this the safe way and just let them X-ray the animal.

Edit: Kevin, you bring up a good point. If I can't get ahold of Kristina and both my Melleri are the same sex I'm going to be SOL. I have no point of comparison so I won't be able to tell what sex they are. I'll just have to get more and more Melleri in my collection until I find one with different pelvis bones. Right now Kristina is the only one I know of that knows exactly what to look for. If I remember correctly she said she did 17 of then at one time. She also said her Xrays would not show up on a digital camera. I still do plan on trying to take pics, just for the hell of it.