Sillkworm Help

[Nihil]

I recently purchased some silkworms (two cup fulls) but they all died, I had a setup like what's described/recommended by breeders, kept in drawers with a raised screen bottom for the frass to fall through, fed them once their current food dried, never saw mold or anything but they would end up darkening in color, slowly become less active, then dead, and next day they'd be mush, they just turned to slime. I don't know what I did wrong.

What's the relative humidity range for these? My temps range from 70-80 and are kept inside with relative humidity being around 25-40% and they were never covered, so the temp/humidity should apply to them as well. Nothing was ever wet, no condensation ever built up.

I read about a virus, and saw pics, but mine didn't seem like that, although I didn't pay super close attention to it cuz I was bummed n discouraged.

 

[lonomac]

It was either the temps, or that virus

Temps should be 78+ to mid 80's. If they do have that Virus they will turn into sludge like that, but not immediately from what Ive seen. Mine died off slowly one by one. but my temps are usually 78-80

 

[Nihil]

It was either the temps, or that virus

Temps should be 78+ to mid 80's. If they do have that Virus they will turn into sludge like that, but not immediately from what Ive seen. Mine died off slowly one by one. but my temps are usually 78-80

Yeah, mine died off slowly, but the sludge thing was over night, after a few had died, I had like 4 big ones that I thought were about ready to cocoon so I put'em in a cardboard box, next morning they were little strips of slime.

I read 68-85 temp range depending on how fast you want them to grow, my heat is old school and heats up to 80, then turns off until about 70 and I had'em right next to the heater, which is gas and always is putting out some heat.

Would it be better to start from egg? I got two of the cup fulls from my feeder place, which came from mulberryfarms cuz I have a tab with'em so I didn't have to pay right away. I'm thinkin of tryin it again from egg though and I'll need a heating pad or better source of heat to be more consistent with temps.

I'm just tryin to figure out what I did wrong.

 

[brandaleon]

i have raised a couple of batches of silkworms, and neither time have i ever even checked the temps. they have been kept at room temp, usually around 70. I don't think temp is to blame for your problems, unless you have it under 50.

 

[brandaleon]

eggs are cheaper---1000 for 15 bucks. worms are 12 bucks for 100

 

[Nihil]

i have raised a couple of batches of silkworms, and neither time have i ever even checked the temps. they have been kept at room temp, usually around 70. I don't think temp is to blame for your problems, unless you have it under 50.

The only thing I can really think of, is humidity or bacterial/viral infections, and like I said, the coldest the temp gets in my house where they're at is 70* and the humidity averages 28% I want to try again but I want to make sure I have everything sorted out before hand.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

The silkworms we'd purchased within the last few months from a certain distributor had the same issue. Many of ours died off, one by one, in the exact same manner you describe. The die off began immediately, and was exactly as described in the silkworm virus description here:

http://www.wormspit.com/grasserie.htm

On further reflection, and after reading Coastalsilkworms input, I realize one thing we did differently. We placed them in our "feeder" room. The daytime temps were well within the healthy silkworm range...BUT...it just now occured to me that this particular room does not have a nightime drop. It houses dubias and crickets, who are all thriving. But I'm beginning to think the silkworm problem began when we started placing them in this room. The room they were in previously did have a nightime drop in temp. That may have been the prob.

We hope to get by breeding our own. We have cocoons, eggs, and had 1 batch of hatchlings thus far. If that doesn't work out, my next step is to buy eggs, probably from PamsChams, or perhaps purchase silkies from coastalsilkworms.

 

[COASTALSILKWORMS]

Most people run into problems when they try and get to exact on providing heat/humidity. You do not want to provide any direct heat source on the worms what so ever. IE do not use heat lamps or heaters blowing right on the worms. If your going to use heat correction it should be done by heating the whole room or an under tank heat pad (these can cause mold issues if not done right). You also do not want the worms to get wet IE humidity the higher the humidity the more problems your going to have. When it comes to these two factors of heat/humidity remember less is always better. If you need more care info go to the FAQ link on our site.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Thank you, Coastalsilkworms, for the advice. I edited my comments below after reading your input. The one thing we did change in October was to place the silkies in our "feeder" room, with a CONSTANT temp of 78-79F (well within silkworm DAYTIME range). If the virus is not the prob, then the loss of a NIGHTTIME DROP in temp may have caused the prob. We still hope to get by raising our own. But, if necessary, we will perhaps purchase from you next time.

Most people run into problems when they try and get to exact on providing heat/humidity. You do not want to provide any direct heat source on the worms what so ever. IE do not use heat lamps or heaters blowing right on the worms. If your going to use heat correction it should be done by heating the whole room or an under tank heat pad (these can cause mold issues if not done right). You also do not want the worms to get wet IE humidity the higher the humidity the more problems your going to have. When it comes to these two factors of heat/humidity remember less is always better. If you need more care info go to the FAQ link on our site.

 

[Nihil]

I had mine housed in sterlite shelves, staggered open with raised mesh for the frass to fall through. they were in my living room where the ambient temp ranged from 70-80 with night time drops and humidity was lowest at 25% and highest was 41%. I think all of that is well in range, especially since there was no direct heat/humidity sources used, they were in whatever environment my living quarters was in.

I'm sorta leaning towards this virus. Could this virus hang out around crickets? Just thought I'd ask that, since my silks came from my cricket vendor who deals with mulberryfarms. And Gesang ran into problems when introduced to their feeder room which contained crickets...was just a thought.

I'm wondering about this virus, it seems there's been studies on it's behavior and can be undetectable. Most of the epidemics I've read of, were a year or so ago though, to which they've supposedly gotten rid of it...unless it's going undetected, perhaps?

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Yes, I have to say I am leaning toward the grasserie virus thing, too. After watching every phase of the illness, and seeing that it exactly matched the virus symptoms step by step and photo by photo.

 

[dodolah]

grasserie most likely comes from unsanitary handlings or infections via other silkworms.

Do you handle/ touch your silkies with your hands? you should always disinfect your hands b4 and after you touch them.
purell alcohol hand sanitizer is handy to have around. get the one without the fragrance and moisturizer as they can also kill your silkies.

or Some of your silkies can be infected already.. so, if you see one that is weak looking, it's best to get rid of it immediately. the milky pus is infectious.

 

[cowchick]

This is really great information. I recently had a problem with a batch of silkworm eggs that were thriving after barely losing any on my first batch. I have had to put in another order before Christmas just to get me through the holidays! Thanks for all the advice guys...I was wondering why they were feeding on the dead ones I couldn't get rid of in time, and you confirmed my suspicion that this causes further die off! Stephanie

 

[dodolah]

This is really great information. I recently had a problem with a batch of silkworm eggs that were thriving after barely losing any on my first batch. I have had to put in another order before Christmas just to get me through the holidays! Thanks for all the advice guys...I was wondering why they were feeding on the dead ones I couldn't get rid of in time, and you confirmed my suspicion that this causes further die off! Stephanie

i think the dead infected silkies just explodes into goo after a while or when it disrupted by a slight touch (be careful on moving those silkies. you don't want it to leak. ewww.. it really gross).
and when others touch that milky pus, you can bet that dude is gonna die too.
The problem comes from silkies weak immune system (if they have any).
over selective breeding (4000 years to be exact) has caused this creature to be completely dependent upon human. I believe Bombyx Mori is no longer found in the wild.

Its wings are vestigial (non functional), no proboscis present (no mouth), weak immune systems are all the cause of selective breedings.
how sadddd .. Today, i fed my chameleons 2 of the moths.. I kinda feel bad.. they're so cute (IMHO).. i cannot bear looking them get eaten.. but I did it anyway because those 2 moths have finished their jobs of reproducing and about to die in a day or two.
This might sound crazy.. but i felt they said "why... why you did this to me?" as they are slowly swallowed by my chameleon.. I don't know why i grow attached to my silk moths..

I was afraid asking questions to a silkie forum.. as they are so passionate about them- I am starting to get passionate about silkworms too (just as we are passionate about chameleons).
I think if they knew the reason i raise them is just to feed them to my pet..
they'll get angry somehow lol (sorry for my ranting).

anyway....

as far as the others eating the dead..
I am not sure if this is normal (I never seen mine eating the carcass of others) BUT silk worm has only 1 job in its life as caterpillar.. which is to eat.
I don't think it even goes to sleep..
and when it grows to moth, its job is just mating..
Knowing that in mind, i guess eating the dead is bound to happen

Seriously, what a simple life it is... just eat and mate.. eat and mate

Hope that helps

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I am careful to wash my hands before and after handling. With the 2 incidences I had the die-off was immediate and so the silkies arrived with the infection. I never throw a new batch in with an old batch, or a new batch into an old container without first bleach-washing it.

grasserie most likely comes from unsanitary handlings or infections via other silkworms.

Do you handle/ touch your silkies with your hands? you should always disinfect your hands b4 and after you touch them.
purell alcohol hand sanitizer is handy to have around. get the one without the fragrance and moisturizer as they can also kill your silkies.

or Some of your silkies can be infected already.. so, if you see one that is weak looking, it's best to get rid of it immediately. the milky pus is infectious.

 

[dodolah]

I am careful to wash my hands before and after handling. With the 2 incidences I had the die-off was immediate and so the silkies arrived with the infection. I never throw a new batch in with an old batch, or a new batch into an old container without first bleach-washing it.

that my friend is a good sanitation!
great! I say antibacterial liquid soap works too.

 

[WormSpit]

(4000 years to be exact) has caused this creature to be completely dependent upon human. I believe Bombyx Mori is no longer found in the wild.

I think if they knew the reason i raise them is just to feed them to my pet..
they'll get angry somehow lol (sorry for my ranting).

Silkworms have been bred for at least 5,000 years - there's good evidence it may be even longer.

The species they were bred *from,* Bombyx mandarina, still thrives in the wild. They're like dogs and wolves - the domesticated version is maintained alive in captivity, but can still breed back to the wild stock. B. mori never existed in the wild, they're a human-created species.

The vestigial wings are indeed a result of selective breeding - if you have a tray of 200 moths, and half of them fly away, you'll get eggs from the naturally most docile ones - but the mouth thing is part of that whole family of Bombycid moths, as well as the Saturniid silkmoths. They live on stored fat and moisture until they dry up or run out of energy.

I run CatHerders, a Yahoo forum for silkmoths - if you want to chat about them there, we're OK with you feeding them to your lizards! A lot of our people raise them primarily for lizard chow. I bake mine to get the silk, which isn't any nicer to them.

As far as disease - there are several gross and fascinating diseases they can get. If they're dying and "melting," it's usually grasserie, or some of the types of flacherie can cause that too. Most of the other causes of death will leave the silkworm limp, but still solid. The bacteria or virus can cause its insides to liquefy, which is what makes them so gooey. Hygiene is a big issue, and moderate humidity and temperature help... but if you have the virus, they're likely to get sick. I've had to throw away entire batches, because they just start melting one after another. Recent studies have shown that the virus *can* be passed from one generation to another through the eggs, so if you get just a few that make it through, it is risky to save those eggs for the next batch.

Michael Cook
www.wormspit.com

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Thank you for writing, Michael. That's a big help. And I'll be sure to check out the silkmoth forum.

 

[dodolah]

Silkworms have been bred for at least 5,000 years - there's good evidence it may be even longer.

The species they were bred *from,* Bombyx mandarina, still thrives in the wild. They're like dogs and wolves - the domesticated version is maintained alive in captivity, but can still breed back to the wild stock. B. mori never existed in the wild, they're a human-created species.

The vestigial wings are indeed a result of selective breeding - if you have a tray of 200 moths, and half of them fly away, you'll get eggs from the naturally most docile ones - but the mouth thing is part of that whole family of Bombycid moths, as well as the Saturniid silkmoths. They live on stored fat and moisture until they dry up or run out of energy.

I run CatHerders, a Yahoo forum for silkmoths - if you want to chat about them there, we're OK with you feeding them to your lizards! A lot of our people raise them primarily for lizard chow. I bake mine to get the silk, which isn't any nicer to them.

As far as disease - there are several gross and fascinating diseases they can get. If they're dying and "melting," it's usually grasserie, or some of the types of flacherie can cause that too. Most of the other causes of death will leave the silkworm limp, but still solid. The bacteria or virus can cause its insides to liquefy, which is what makes them so gooey. Hygiene is a big issue, and moderate humidity and temperature help... but if you have the virus, they're likely to get sick. I've had to throw away entire batches, because they just start melting one after another. Recent studies have shown that the virus *can* be passed from one generation to another through the eggs, so if you get just a few that make it through, it is risky to save those eggs for the next batch.

Michael Cook
www.wormspit.com

lol.. thanks for the clarification.
please visit us once in a while..
your insights are very much welcomed in this forum.

We need some knowledge about the feeders.