Subcutaneous worm on eyelid

[fluxlizard]

cool.
Thanks for reporting back.

 

[deerharvester]

I shotgun treated pretty close to the same as you. The entamoeba was found in a small quantity in the one male that had them which the Flagyl probably knocked it out of the others but just need a little more on the one. The coccidia which i didn't shotgun treat for was found in large quantities in each one.

Scott

 

[Todnedo]

I'll see what I can do. I guess I need to learn how to convert the file? It is an avi format now.

OK- done- found a good video conversion website online free. Here it is in mp4 format. If this is no good, let me know a good format. Will be good reference when I start up my blog again- I'd like to do some video of my insect colonies soon now that they are rolling and some outdoor caging ideas for some of the lizards later this year and maybe hibernation boxes now, etc. So I'd like to know a good format that is universally usable.

http://livingwithlizards.com/?attachment_id=1118

There is another I took as well of removing a worm from the side of one.

http://livingwithlizards.com/?attachment_id=1117



If you got them this shipment- I'd guess it is more likely than not that they have them. Look for odd shaped slight lumps or masses under the skin. The worms move around some- sometimes I think they are easier to see than other times- maybe even the skin tightens on them sometimes so they stand out. A good strong incandescent light that will cast shadows on the surface of the skin where any lumps are so they kind of stand out is how I find them. Especially I look for "squiggles" or "loops" under the skin.

When one is found, get a pair of tweezers and pull the skin out a bit, put a gentle as small as possible nick with a razor. I did not show this part on the video, only the removal. The hole can be very very small as the skin is loose and you can move the hole a bit into exact position by gently slipping the skin about until you can see the worm in the hole. It will stand out and be very obvious as white or yellowish white on the pink background. Then I take a clean pin and slip it into the hole and under the worm- imagine the worm is a thread you are going to pull a bit with a pin. Once the worm is out of the hole a little, I finish pulling with the tweezers, which is what you see in my videos above.


Deerharvester-

Not saying you should do what I do, go with what your veterinarian recommends. I developed my routine with a veterinarian (my father) in the mid 90s and it has always worked well for me and since the late 90s I haven't done much with wc chameleons anyway, so I've never updated it and really it probably should have a good update. But for experiences with wild caught chameleons-

I generally "shotgun" my wc chams to clean them up over a period of 10 days, and then a couple more followup treatments at day 10 days later, after the end of the first 10 days, with flagyl and fenbendazole. During the 10 days I have them on some sort of antibiotic as well- in this case I'm using flagyl at a dose recommended for anaerobes. I've also used baytril sometimes instead in the past, but I prefer the flagyl as I feel I am taking care of multiple problems with one stroke that way. I want to get the worms all cut out before I'm done with the the 10 days so the lizards have a little protection from the cutting. I start the 10 days at the highest recommended dose for flagylites and repeat on day 10, with the in between days at the lower dose. This time I also ran albon the first 7 days at the recommendation of the dealer that they be treated for coccidia.

I treat at night at bedtime for the lizards so they can sleep off the stress and behave normally during the day. If messed with early in the day, they tend to spend the rest of the day hiding and on alert, rather than behaving normally. After the cutting the worms and giving the meds, I give a home made slurry mix to assist feed, help with bacteria in the gut and keep them hydrated. The slurry is simple and consists of 1 part human baby food- chicken, 1 part yogurt unflavored with live bacteria, and enough pedyialite to make it into a thinnish shake consistancy- thick, but not so thick that it holds shape when the spoon is removed from stirring. To this I add a small pinch of reptivite or minerall 0, alternating between the days.

Each panther this time has recieved 3 ccs of the mix each night. I give them this immediately after giving them the oral meds. I then return them to their cages to sleep it off overnight. The slurry is such that it is quick and easy to absorb and digest and seems to go through them pretty quickly- they still eat insects and drink during the next day.

Weight gains so far have been as follows (forgot to record day 1) -

Panther 1 - day 2 84 grams day 8 100 grams (84g 85g 91g 93g 96g 96g 100g)

Panther 2- day 2 106 grams day 8 116 grams (106g 108g 109g 115g 119g 120g 116g)

Panther 3- day 2 118grams day 8 130 g (118g 122g 118g 131g 134g 136g 130g)

The dramatic jumps in weight for 2 and 3 happened after feeding large dubia during the day. weight loss a couple days later probably occurred after those were digested and pooped out. Yesterday there was probably some water weight lost as well- I had frozen pipes and no water until I was able to get them thawed last evening, but watering was very late in the day- they only had about an hour between misting and lights out. You can see weight goes up and down a bit day to day anyway (check out panther 3 days 3 and 4 and 5) but overall it climbs so that is good.

I'm not saying what I do is what everyone should do, but it has always worked well for me. I've used it for several species, with groups of up to 20 individuals with really excellent results sometimes. Once I had several melleri sold to me for almost nothing because they were the last of a shipment and "bottom of the barrell" and not expected to make it. And they looked horrible- skin and bone. This routine saw nearly all of them make huge weight gains over 2 weeks time. I got my first breeding in the 1990s from that group.



I strongly believe wild caught lizards of all sorts are better left to those who first have plenty of experience with captive bred ones and secondly have the plan to try and breed and establish terrarium populations of the species- not only keep them as a "pet". Even with the best veterinary care they are a gamble and ethics totally aside- should not be purchased if you cannot afford to loose the purchase.

And it is just better for everyone involved- the lizards end up in more experienced hands, the breeder has someone tell support his efforts when he produces terrarium bred animals and the buyer ends up with healthier, easier lizards who are happy to be in a terrarium...

I feel this way about everything from the cheap little lizards sold in most pet shops to unsuspecting new owners to the more expensive exotics that take some finding to get a hold of.

As more experienced keepers, we should be working towards self sustaining populations and edging the imports out of the market- as has been done with leopard geckos, fat tailed geckos, ball pythons etc- wc are still available for these species, but the terrarium bred are so readily available and affordable, that they wc are no longer worth it.

The only reason I purchased the wc ambilobe males is because I am working towards a self-sustaining population (I hope- chameleons are tricky and the big breeders of panthers seemingly rely still on imports to ensure the viability of their projects- I am trying to build a genetically diverse gene pool and then after I feel I have enough diversity (probably in 1-4 years, depending), close the doors to new blood or only very occasionally adding cb blood from outside if something strikes my fancy, and see if I can keep things going over many generations).

If someone reading this post is just a casual pet owner or someone who thinks breeding a panther or veiled is a big deal- stay away from imports. They really aren't for everyone.



I plan to do fecals on mine after I'm done with my initial routine. I would love to know what you find out from the lab.

What kind of side effects do you see from flagyl and albon?

 

[fluxlizard]

What kind of side effects do you see from flagyl and albon?

None that I can see.

Maybe because I use that slurry that I mix up.

I get steady weight gains during treatment and the lizards choose to eat on their own during the day as well- so I don't really think there is much loss of appetite. I usually mist longer so they can drink a bit more as well. In the past when I've had really sick emaciated lizards, they would start eating on their own before the 10 days of treatment were up.

Also the flagyl at that lower daily dose is a sort of antibiotic- I just kind of think that is a good idea when the lizards are already dealing with a lot of dead organisms in their systems from the high inital dose of flagyl and the fenbendazole. Plus whatever else is going on they have to deal with.

10 days later (last night) I did a final (3rd) hit with full strength flagyl and fenbendazole. Each of my males ended up gaining a few more grams over the last 10 days (which were the 10 days after the 10th day of treatment).

I'm not a vet, and really if you can afford it, IMO it is worth the cost of professional treatment and knowing what exactly is in the lizard that you want to get rid of, but this has always worked well for me. flagyl, fenbendazole and now ponazuril seems like will get rid of most things.

Also- I can get the 3 drugs I used without veterinary prescription, but sadly, cannot get find a source of the ponazuril- from reading it sounds like that drug is light years ahead of the albon- but I can get albon so that is what I went with. For now, I'll just continue to monitor the lizards and watch weight on them and determine over time if I need something else.

11 days out now, they are fiesty and fit and all 3 have more spirit and temper than on arrival by far, so that's good. Also I had a female that really needed to be bred and one of these has been doing the job the last few days.

My second son is planning on attending vet school in a few years, after he gets a degree in biochemistry. If he goes that route I'm looking forward to having a source for meds again!