Summoning all the Silkworms Experts.

[KaikogArt]

Hi there people'

I'm new, i do not own a charmeleon, i actually discovered the forum while hunting for advice and infos about Silkworm Rearing.


After about a month of lurking, i've decided to just join the forum.


I would actually appreciate some help with something, as i've previously mentioned, i'm was raising a colony of Silkies, seemingly healthy, yesterday, after feeding them their first leaves ( after around a month of chow) they successfully ate plenty, but later on in the day they suddenly got sluggish, letargic and then proceed to coil around themselves ( like snakes) and stop eating/moving.


They didn't seem to be ill at all ( before i gave them their first leaves) and ate their usual stripes of chow.


Let me also briefly gave you some infos about my setup:


- Raised them into a big plastic box with ventilation and kept the required humidity and heat throughout the instars;

- Regularly sterilized ( under uvc light) and changed both mesh, substrate ( i used sheets of Paper towel), + fed them everyday switching the dried chow with new one every morning;

-When interacting both with them and anything that came in contact with them ( housing, substrate, food... everything) always wore powderless Latex Free Gloves;

- Gave them freshly picked Muldberry leaves, Making 99% sure they didn't have any insecticide, made sure i washed them thoroughly and dry patted them with some paper towel before storing/feeding.



Since they straight up went worse/died right after i gave them the leaves, i strongly suspect they are the leading cause of my colony's failure, although i'm curious to hear your opinions about what could have caused this critical failure.


I'm a well-informed first timer ( i spent months researching the topic and preparing everything before hatching the silkies ) and i tried to take all the necessary precaution to successfully raise some healthy silkies, but i could have easily fucked up somewere along the line and i might need the help of someone more experienced on the matter to pinpoint it.


I'll also leave some images of all the stages they were able to go through to help you troubleshoot or highlight possible diseases or leading Anomalies:


hatched

6 days in

5 days ago

Yesterday

Today

In my own opinion, it could have been either something in the leaves or they contracted ( or already had at birth) some kind of disease... or perhaps, something else i'm missing.

I'm gonna try again next year during the Muldberry season anyway ( perhaps even separating them in two groups, giving chow only to one, and leaves to the other group)... still, i would really appreciate the help of the forum's experts.


Also, are there any tricks to keep everything smooth, neat and clean that i've missed? one of the most annoying thing i've experienced during feeding is the fact that on later stages they tend to wrap silk on the lower level during, or after feeding, probably, anchoring the old mesh with the new one and making the daily cleaning process even more tedious, if you have any, i would definitely love/appreciate some advice on that, also.

Thank you in advance and i hope you all have a wonderful day.

 

[Mountain Dragon]

I know nothing bout silkies but hopefully a member who does comes along have a great day!

 

[nightanole]

Ill post what i do.

Get eggs
dont incubate
either gently remove each silky from petridish and place on leaf using tweezers, or after a few hatch, place leaf on contact, or scrap the whole shmere onto leaf
Everything gets cleaned with a non ph beer brewing cleaner, such as starsan
container is only cleaned before transfer, and never again
from hatch till last instar, i just run the unwashed leaves through a food processor till they look like grass clippings
i never wash leaves
i always have a finger bowl of starsan for grabbing worms, i do not wear gloves
uneating worms are released into the wild i never put them back in the tub
i never clean the tub, every 2 days it gets a new layer of leaves, and they just migrate up

What concerns me is the death after eating the first batch of leaves. Normally if the leaves are contaminated, they puke their little brains out and turn the paper towel full orange, or what ever your media is. They dont just curl up and die.

 

[MissSkittles]

I only feed my silkies chow and by no means terribly knowledgable about more than the basics. However, I wonder if their digestive systems couldn’t handle the transition from chow to leaves. That one poor little silk looks very bloated.

 

[nightanole]

I only feed my silkies chow and by no means terribly knowledgable about more than the basics. However, I wonder if their digestive systems couldn’t handle the transition from chow to leaves. That one poor little silk looks very bloated.

Silkies will easily jump ship from chow to leaves. Infact they really dont like chow, and after some leaves, they hunger strike for a bit if switch back to chow.

 

[Lindasjackson]

Sounds like the leaves had something on them you didn’t know about.

 

[kinyonga]

This might help...
https://www.peacefulsilkworms.com.au/?page_id=505

Maybe this too...
https://everythingsilkworms.com.au/beginners-guide-to-silkworms/

 

[KaikogArt]

I know nothing bout silkies but hopefully a member who does comes along have a great day!

Thank you Dino, no problem, however, i do appreciate the sentiment, you too!

Ill post what i do.

Get eggs
dont incubate
either gently remove each silky from petridish and place on leaf using tweezers, or after a few hatch, place leaf on contact, or scrap the whole shmere onto leaf
Everything gets cleaned with a non ph beer brewing cleaner, such as starsan
container is only cleaned before transfer, and never again
from hatch till last instar, i just run the unwashed leaves through a food processor till they look like grass clippings
i never wash leaves
i always have a finger bowl of starsan for grabbing worms, i do not wear gloves
uneating worms are released into the wild i never put them back in the tub
i never clean the tub, every 2 days it gets a new layer of leaves, and they just migrate up

What concerns me is the death after eating the first batch of leaves. Normally if the leaves are contaminated, they puke their little brains out and turn the paper towel full orange, or what ever your media is. They dont just curl up and die.

This is what i did:

-Got eggs ( seller didn't gave me a petri, they were sold to me into a small ziplocked bag ( in the first photo i had to, gently with a paintbrush, empty the eggs into a substrate ( they hatched completely fine and i was able to synchronize hatch them most of them togheter, no issue there;

- Kept them in the plastic housing with ventilation i mentioned in my post that i cleaned the first time with water, rubbing alchol then water again and i only cleaned the substrate ( Paper towel, added new uv sterilized mesh and new food every single day).

- I handpicked and washed each single leaf ( selected the cleanest onese) and run them through warm water then, dry patted them with paper towels, and put them in ziplocked bags in the fridge removing all the air ( but tbh i didn't even made it in time to use the stored ones because they got ill literally not even an hour after eating the first leaves)

- I almost never grabbed Caterpillars, i handled them 90% of the time by dipping the side of a toothpick into some prepared chow so they'd climb over and then i'd transfer them onto the new food ( ofc i did this still using gloves and by previously uv- sterilizing the toothpicks, they'd just calmly scuttle onto them then they'd "jump" on the chow once they got the scent of it, it was pretty annoying but i found that that was the best method to selectively move them without the risk of harming them)

- I used chow and i planned to make the switch since they got big enough to chew on the leaves pretty well ( as you can see from the images i've posted)


You're right, It is concerning because i have also informed myself about Silkies diseases and it doesn't look like any of the existing ones causes them to curl up like snakes.

They literally just started curling up and mostly stopped moving, but, actually still alive, ,some started roaming, some rested belly up, but still not dead, and, one other thing that i've observed is that alot of them started having issues moving one specific half of their body, some struggled moving the back, some the front ( the head just fine, but turned of a brownish color, from what i read though, the head color it's just a transition coloration/sign from when they are about to molt)


Thank you for sharing your infos/help btw, the " unwashed leaves run through the food processor" bit it's definitely interesting.

I only feed my silkies chow and by no means terribly knowledgable about more than the basics. However, I wonder if their digestive systems couldn’t handle the transition from chow to leaves. That one poor little silk looks very bloated.

I've read that they'd be quite eager to make the switch, infact, even after getting suddenly ill after their first meal, they still didn't accept chow back.

First, i thought some of them got ill cause they struggled to chew the leaves, so i minced them in smaller bite-sized bites, and also left a small mesh with the usual chow strip ( i thought some couldn't eat the leaves so i left some to test if they'd prefer the chow) but they didn't even gave it a look.

Silkies will easily jump ship from chow to leaves. Infact they really dont like chow, and after some leaves, they hunger strike for a bit if switch back to chow.

I tried to offer them some of the roaming ones some chow, but they didn't want to eat it at all.




I'm pretty sure this crisis had to do with something in the leaves, because they were all happily eating chow and growing every day right before they ate the first leaf, then they all started acting like this and eventually curled up and slowly died.


After meticulously taking care of them and constantly informing myself for about Silkies for about a month, saying that i'm confused ( and sad) it's a bit of an understatement.


I thank everybody for offering their input, and i'll be definitely open/waiting for more!

 

[KaikogArt]

This might help...
https://www.peacefulsilkworms.com.au/?page_id=505

Maybe this too...
https://everythingsilkworms.com.au/beginners-guide-to-silkworms/

Thank you for sharing, but i've not only read both of these, but i believe i've actually read every single piece of available info about silkworms in english ( i've also read the Japanese PDF scientific research/report about optimal condition of Silkworm Rearing) that i was able to find on the web.


Not only i informed myself for about a month before buying my first ones, but i've also kept reading/ informing myself on them up until yesterday.


I'm asking here for help because i couldn't find online any kind of explaination that matches my problem.


I believe asking experts/people with direct experience will be more productive/helpful, i already lurked in this forum ( and actually got quite alot of useful infos about taking care of silkwroms from here, for which I am extremely grateful) for some time so i decided to just give it a shot and ask for help directly.

Any kind of info matured from direct and personal experience is well appreciated, so please, if you may, keep em' coming.

 

[kinyonga]

Hope you figure out what the issue is. Hopefully you'll find some experts who have had the exact same issue as you have had and they will be able to tell you what they did to either prevent it or cure it.
Strange to me that the issue could occur when you switched from chow to leaves without it being something to do with the leaves.
If you figure it out maybe you could post on here so we can all learn from it?

 

[KaikogArt]

Sounds like the leaves had something on them you didn’t know about.

That's actually my main suspicion here, since they were all fine and very active/kept growing up right until they consumed their first leaf, then, i took some time to cook/eat some food myself and i immediatly noticed they got ill.


I'm about 99% sure the leaves didn't had any pesticide on them because i took the leaves from a giant tree in a place where the owners do not spend time or money taking care of it, it's kept as " natural" as it gets.


However, the place where i got it from is situated near a public park, so my current main suspicion is that some " outside party" used some in the nearby trees and ( since the day before i picked them it rained buckets) it might have been "pushed" onto the nearby giant mudberry tree ( literally separated by a net fence).

While searching from infos about pesticides, i've read that it can be transfered on other trees whenever it rains.


The nearby park tree's being treated with pesticide/insecticide it's 100% a wild guess/hypothesis of mine, i have no actual idea if that's/was the case.

Hope you figure out what the issue is. Hopefully you'll find some experts who have had the exact same issue as you have had and they will be able to tell you what they did to either prevent it or cure it.
Strange to me that the issue could occur when you switched from chow to leaves without it being something to do with the leaves.
If you figure it out maybe you could post on here so we can all learn from it?

Thank you, at this point, i think sharing direct experiences will be the most effective method here.

Not only it's very interesting to read about people's methods/setups but it's also very helpful and informative.

That's,partially, what this kind of forums are for.

Ofc, i'll definitely make sure to do that, after all i already have to thank this forum plenty for all the info i got about silkies far before i've even bought them, it would just seems right to return the favor.

( it's definitely too late to " cure" it as of today, they all completely wiped out... so yeah, definitely preventing it it's gonna be my main concern here).


I think asking for help and then solving the issue and then withdraw without sharing the solution would be quite rude.

 

[Lindasjackson]

Thank you!

 

[KaikogArt]

If someone else has any clue or some ulterior advice/experience about the topic or general advice/own setup ( or tricks to clean/maximize hygene on both silkies and leaves) for silkworm rearin.

Even if it were just sharing your own general experience, i'd really love to hear more.

 

[ERKleRose]

I use this to clean my silkworm supplies:
https://www.educationalscience.com/...g-reagent-concentrate-makes-15-gallons-rls-16

 

[ERKleRose]

Along with always washing my hands and wearing sterile gloves and supplies when dealing with silkworms, too

 

[Flick boy]

I have bought from silkworm uk and it is not recommended to handle without gloves or at least use tongs/ tweezers . Anyway I have only had silkworms a few times and been some what unsuccessfully at keeping them for long periods but imo cleaning the tubs to much and moving them about daily causing stress may have implications. ONLY MY THOUGHTS b4 someone I wonder who lol calls me out whatever

 

[MissSkittles]

Even though you cleaned the mulberry leaves, I wonder if it’s possible contaminants used in the adjacent park were within the actual leaf structure. This may explain it better than I can. http://npic.orst.edu/envir/plantint.html

 

[KaikogArt]

Even though you cleaned the mulberry leaves, I wonder if it’s possible contaminants used in the adjacent park were within the actual leaf structure. This may explain it better than I can. http://npic.orst.edu/envir/plantint.html

That's actually my main suspicion here, since they were all fine and very active/kept growing up right until they consumed their first leaf, then, i took some time to cook/eat some food myself and i immediatly noticed they got ill.


I'm about 99% sure the leaves didn't had any pesticide on them because i took the leaves from a giant tree in a place where the owners do not spend time or money taking care of it, it's kept as " natural" as it gets.


However, the place where i got it from is situated near a public park, so my current main suspicion is that some " outside party" used some in the nearby trees and ( since the day before i picked them it rained buckets) it might have been "pushed" onto the nearby giant mudberry tree ( literally separated by a net fence).

While searching from infos about pesticides, i've read that it can be transfered on other trees whenever it rains.


The nearby park tree's being treated with pesticide/insecticide it's 100% a wild guess/hypothesis of mine, i have no actual idea if that's/was the case.

Yep that's actually what i feared was the problem, after all, it's pretty suspicious that they were all fine and active and then they all fell ill just after about one hour ( probably less) from consuming their first leaf.

It's definitely something that's tied to the leaves.

I use this to clean my silkworm supplies:
https://www.educationalscience.com/...g-reagent-concentrate-makes-15-gallons-rls-16

Along with always washing my hands and wearing sterile gloves and supplies when dealing with silkworms, too

I severely doubt this grim outcome was a result of poor hygiene, as i took plenty of effort on making sure i always kept everything neat and clean, everything that came in contact with the silkies and their housing was pre-sterilized with uv sterilizer.

They also never show any sign of being ill or inactive up until one hour after feeding their first leaf, so at this point i'm convinced that was most certainly the issue.

I however thank you and anybody that answered to this thread for offering their useful imput/insight about this.

I already decided to try again during the next Muldberry season, this time though i'll make sure to find a sane source of leaves and i'll definitely test them on few of them beforehand just to be sure.


Thank you everybody!


I'd still like for the thread to stay open because i'd really be interested of reading more about how you take care of your silkworms/setups, if it's possible.

 

[ERKleRose]

You can continue to keep them and feed chow (until you can get clean mulberry leaves), they're very healthy for your reptiles and amphibians!