Swollen Neck...

[Jerambis]

My 4 months old panther's neck is swollen. He has proper lighting (5.0 reptisun, and basking temp of 82f with ~70f ambient temp). Proper cage setup, plants etc. His crickets (8 small every morning) are dusted lightly on this schedule:

Monday and Thursday - Herptivite with beta carotene
Tuesday and Friday - Rep-Cal with calcium and vitamin D3.
Wednesday and Saturday - Minerall 0
Sunday - Nothing

I have two other chams, one is older the other is the same age that are in perfect health, with the same setup he has and same dusting schedule as well.

Here are some bad pics that make his neck look waaay worse than it really is. Please tell me what you guys think, thanks in advance.

 

[deerhunter]

neck

hi jerambis I have the exat same problem with my female veiled i was told it is edema caused by to much supplementation or injury

 

[deerhunter]

neck

hey curious were did you get your panthers and what region are they from i also just purchased two blue barred ambilobes 4 months ago is it possible they are brother or sis?

 

[Jerambis]

Maybe, I got this one from from Kammerflage, so if it is clutch of "menadivey" then it is possible.

He definetly did not fall, He is in a smaller cage, perfect for his size, and he acts very healthy eats a lot drinks, etc. It seemed like it slowly just started swelling over the last 2 weeks or so.
Over supplementation? How would you suggest changing my schedule?

 

[kinyonga]

deerhunter said in a thread in a different section...."repcal herptivite repcal calcium with vitamin D3 and Minerall alternating daily".

Jerambis said in this thread...
"Monday and Thursday - Herptivite with beta carotene
Tuesday and Friday - Rep-Cal with calcium and vitamin D3.
Wednesday and Saturday - Minerall 0
Sunday - Nothing"

I'm not a vet and can't be certain what is causing the edema. There is more than one thing that will cause it. You need to take the chameleons to a good reptile vet to find out for sure what the cause is.

What I can tell you is that you both dust far more often with the vitamins and the D3/calcium than I do...and my chameleons have no gular edema. Jackson's and other montane species are more sensative to oversupplementation than veileds are. (I keep some montanes and some veileds and other species.)

I already mentioned to deerhunter that cat food has preformed vitamin A in it....which might be a part of the problem.

I dust twice a month with a vitamin powder with a beta carotene source of vitamin A....and twice a month with a D3/calcium powder. I dust a couple of times a week with a phos.-free calcium powder. I gutload my crickets with greens and veggies.

When balancing calcium, D3, vitamin A and phosphorous, you need to take into consideration the supplements you use and how often, the basking temperature, and whatever is in your gutload (especially the non-veggie/greens things).

As I have already said...I can't say that the edema in your chameleons is caused by oversupplementation.

Edema...
"C. jacksonii xantholophus is sensitive to oversupplementation and exhibits significant edema, particularly in the cervical region if vitamin supplements are used more than once a week."
http://www.adcham.com/html/taxonomy/species/chjacksonixanth.html

"Excessive vitamin A supplementation may result in organ toxicity (kidney and liver) some times causing gular edema and reproductive problems such as sterility."
"Excessive vitamin D3 supplementation can result in organ toxicity (gular edema)metastatic calcification, gout, and pseudo-gout (calcium-like deposit)."
"Treatment for hypervitaminosis is more difficult as organ toxicity and damage has usually occurred by the time clinical signs have been noted (e.g. gular edema with kidney damage)."
http://www.seavs.com/case_studies/lizards/chameleons.asp

"What you've described with the swelling of the neck sounds like classic symptoms of edema. Edema in chameleons is often caused by hypervitaminosis (over supplementation). Some chameleon species are in particular prone to over supplementation which can be triggered by a number of vitamin sources. Gutloads high in certain vitamins (most notably vitamin A and high carrot use in gutloads) is one common source of excessive vitamins. Use of supplements too often and failure to realize the correct need of calcium vs. vitamin supplements is another common cause of hypervitaminosis. Unfortunately, you will need to see a qualified reptile vet to determine the exact cause of the edema and work out a treatment for it."
http://www.chameleonnews.com/qa_jun_2005.html

"Vitamin D3
Excess vitamin D3 supplementation especially in combination with calcium may result in organ toxicity. Metastatic calcification and gout are common results. Gular edema or pseudo gout is a common clinical sign of these problems. The pseudo-gout (calcium hydroxyapatite) deposits usually appear as irregular firm swellings over joints in the limbs and on ribs."
"RENAL DISEASE

One of the most common causes of death in chameleons is renal disease. One of the most likely causes of these renal changes would be chronic dehydration. Exposure to low humidity or inadequate watering methods could lead to renal failure, especially in conjunction with other factors. Clinical signs are usually vague, but include anorexia, depression, weight loss, and weakness. Other common signs include gular edema, generalized edema, exophthalmia, and sunken in eyes."
http://www.all-creatures.com/site/view/79378_Chameleons.pml;jsessionid=4497k8au7kj

 

[deerhunter]

neck

kinyonga yur the stuff I agree with you on the whole cat food thing and believe causing my chams case of edema her shots are over and the cat food in the trash believe or not she takes crirkets from my hand i wish iwould have tried earlier but she always got so angry when handled I can say now after all shes been through we are alot closer and more used to eachother. still not using tongue though damn it

 

[deerhunter]

neck

hi jerambis, my male is from mango akondra and my female is from rivadoza already seeing alot of color in both especially my male but he is one mean sunof a gun the female is friendly but shy I dont handle them very often
hopefully we will rescue our chams

 

[Jerambis]

Ya I talked to Liddy and she said the same thing Kinyonga said (which was very helpful, thank you Kinyonga). I just need to back off of the supplements and she said within a few weeks I should notice a difference. I have three chams from them.

My Nosy Be is the nicest cham ever, always trying to see what I am doing and comes to the front of the cage when I come by. My female is mean, very territorial and hates if I put a hand in her cage, hisses, bites, etc. Then my other male is a little shy, but he has some great colors and he is about 4 months old.

 

[Dean Pulcini]

My female panther didn't have it when she was inside for the winter but a soon as she went out full time her neck swelled. Leads me to believe that she had to much vitamins or calcium in her system when I put her outside full time coupled with the sun gave her a neck edema. So I stopped the vitamins also the calcium and increased her water intake (made her drink) I also fed the insects food high iodine (raw cabbage). It took 2 weeks but her edema is now gone.