The 'M' word for Otto..

[royden]

Very sad night for me last night when I noticed Otto's bent casque for the first time.

Suddenly I put it all together. His super low appetite which I attributed to the common distaste of crickets (I was considering supplimenting with silkworms for the next order). His spine which I had noticed earlier this week, has a slight distortion. Adding the bent casque to that list and I don't think I need a vet to diagnose him. He's still very fiesty and active, but his coloration is often dark, which has bothered me for a while.

I'm devastated.

I'm checking out the local vet tomorrow for the price of check ups or liquid calcium.

I don't think I need any advice right now, I've been on these boards long enough to know what I need to do. It's just very devastating. And I need to find the money to afford to treat him. I really feel like my husbandry is good. But if anyone wants to review it, feel free to PM me or just ask. I may review it publicly in the next few days, but I need to get control of the disease first.

I guess I'm just sharing. Thanks for listening.

 

[Scooter]

How old is he ? What have you been dusting with? Gut loading with ? I am always worrying about Butter... but so far, so good for us.

 

[Mintglow]

I'm sorry to hear about that hopefully, though, you've caught him early enough that some good supplimentation and a little bit of extra care will see him through it. I'm always terrified of it too, it seems like no matter how good care you take of them, the risk is there... I wish you the best of luck!

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

We are so sorry to hear about Otto. I know how serious you are about the quality of your care, and how faithfully you follow this forum. Hopefully the vet can customize some of Otto's details to get some better absorption going. Please let us know how it goes this week.

 

[royden]

Thanks for the support everyone.

Otto has a vet appointment tomorrow morning with a really great vet in Bothell, Washington.

If anyone wants to review my husbandry, please feel free.

8 month male veiled from FLChams.

24"x24"x36" metal screen enclosure, recessed into the office closet. No natural light, but good airflow.

Heat lamp with a 5.0 UVB reptisun bulb.
Basking temp in basking spot in the upper 90's. lower cage in the mid to lower 70's. Night time temps drop to upper 60's, low 70's.

Humidity fluctuates with misting between 90% and below 30%.
hand misted twice a day until entire cage and cham is soaked. Completely dry inbetween misting. Big dripper used moderately. Urates quite white, sometimes with a hint of yellow, but not often.

Feeding crickets only, gutloaded on a dry calcium rich feed, and collard greens. Dusted 2 out of 3 feedings with calcium, 1 out of three feedings with calcium+D3, 1 out of 3 feedings no dusting.

Used to eat 12-15 crickets daily. Recent severe decline to approximately 8 or less.

No drainage yet. Just a dish to catch access water that gets emptied every several days.

Still very mean, very strong grip, yet often shows dark colors.

Thanks averyone! No worries if you don't get a chance to review, the vet requested a detailed account of my husbandry, and he'll be reviewing it tomorrow.

 

[royden]

The other good news is that a vet check up is only $45, and liquid calcium could be only $20. That was my budget for setting up his drainage this month but that can wait.

 

[Mintglow]

I am by no means an expert, but that sounds like an excellent setup for him... I don't know what could possibly be wrong. The only thing I could even remotely think of is that your heat lamp is also your UV lamp... we have a heat lamp AND a seperate UV lamp for Cricket, because I heard that combination lamps don't always give off an adequate amount? I could be wrong though, I am a first-timer and we go a little overboard ("Better safe than sorry" is our motto) so it might not be necessary after all... maybe invest in a seperate UV light for him? Other than that... I'm stumped.

I heard that some types of greens can hinder calcium absorption but collard greens appear to be on the safe list so... yeah, I don't know what else...

 

[royden]

Thanks for your response mintglow!

Sorry for the lack of clarity, My heat lamp and UVB bulb are seperate, and yes you're right that is the best way to go from what I've heard on these boards.

The weakest point of Otto's setup is his lack of drainage and natural sunlight. I also killed two of his three live plants recently, and he could probably use some more foliage. Other than that, I feel like it's a pretty happy cham home.

 

[Electric]

what do you mean by M word? M as in MBD? if so, sorry to hear that, how do you think that came about? judging by your above posts, he's getting enough calcium... but 1 out of 3 feedings with d3 sounds like a bit much (to me) depending on how thickly you coat the feeders. As for him often being dark, that could be do to him being in a closet and the lack of natural light... maybe he just isn't 'happy' in the dark closet, which would give him that 'bad mood' dark color, and the fact that maybe he isn't 'happy' in his cage could be why he's got such a low appetite, maybe he's refusing to eat because he's not happy so he's just eating enough to survive... almost like a chain effect

do you put him outside in real sun at all? if so, maybe he got a taste of the real outdoors with the sun and all that natural light and enjoyed it so much that when he returns to his cage he realises how dark it is in there and maybe the chameleon can sense it's unnatural to them


my cham is by no means a big eater either but I dust with a 'only' calcium powder once every 2 days or so, give him plenty of outdoor sunlight when I get the chance, and use a calcium+d3 (extremely thin dusting) powder once per 2/3/4 weeks (depending on how much real sun he gets) and so far so good. I go real easy on the d3 because of all the "d3 can build up to toxic levels if given too much" stuff I read and because when I first got him I, the guy from the store told me to 'dust everyday with it' so I did that for about 2 weeks, then from reading realised the dude's advice was pretty much sh!t.

so could a d3 overdose be a possibility here? (just a wild guess)

forgot to mention I could easily be wrong, all this is only my opinion and guessing judging from the info given

 

[Mintglow]

Thanks for your response mintglow!

Sorry for the lack of clarity, My heat lamp and UVB bulb are seperate, and yes you're right that is the best way to go from what I've heard on these boards.

The weakest point of Otto's setup is his lack of drainage and natural sunlight. I also killed two of his three live plants recently, and he could probably use some more foliage. Other than that, I feel like it's a pretty happy cham home.

Okay, cool ^_^

Hmm... the foliage... does he try and eat any of it? Maybe some of the plants in your enclosure are of the variety that block calcium absorbtion- going back to my previous post- I'm really taking shots in the dark here though, you seem about 10000000x more experienced than I am... let us know what the vet says once you see him!

 

[Smitty]

It looks good to me. The only thing I'm doing different is that I'm not providing that much D3 (as mentioned already), I only give that every other week. I am doing the calcium dusting at every feeding though. My vieled is about 4-5 months old right now.

The rest of the setup I'm doing the same for the most part.

 

[Dave Weldon]

...lamp with a 5.0 UVB reptisun bulb.
...

Howdy,
Just to cover the bases... I assume that there isn't any glass or plastic between the acutal UVB tube's surface and your critter. What is his usual basking distance from the UVB tube?

Got photos of your setup?

 

[royden]

Hey. Thanks again for everyones help and response. I really appreciate it.

Clarifications:

Yes I am thinking it's MBD. Sorry Electric.

Dave, there is just the metal screen inbetween the uvb bulb and the basking spot. I'd say he's only several inches away when he's basking. I took photos of the setup to show the vet so I'll post them here too.

I do take him outside on sunny days, but that will be less frequent as winter rolls into Seattle. Reasons I believe he's 'happy' in his enclosure (althoug I'm sure he'd be happier with some sunlight) he seems to sit outside in absolute terror. I have a big front yard that's quiet and green. I place him on the clamatus trelus in the direct sun, and he clings to it, unmoving and terrified, constantly pointing his spine at me, and never taking his eyes off me.

When I get him back into the office I have to hold him tightly because once he sees his cage he often leaps for it. He doesn't like me. He doesn't like being handled. But I have a hard time believing he doesn't like it outside, but he sure doesn't look happy out there. I continue to take him out becasue I know it's good for him. Perhaps a half hour every weekend or so.

Thanks again for everyones input!

 

[Electric]

ah well that's not how I had it pictured when you said in a closet with no sunlight, in the first pic I see a window right there so the room must still get decently illuminated enough to keep him pleased light-wise

hope all goes well with him keep us posted

 

[Julirs]

Is that a compact flourescent bulb? Many people have not had good luck with those bulbs. I would switch to a Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0 flourescent tube bulb.

 

[Electric]

^ read upper postings ^_^

 

[PardalisGirl]

Otto.......

I'm just getting caught up on this forum.....Had to skip a few days on the computer. It looks like you got all your fears/concerns about Otto addressed at the vet per a different thread. If I had seen this without seeing the other thread first I would have said that calcium does not seem to be a problem. You are giving him plenty of calcium. Your D3 might be a bit high. A little of that stuff goes a long way. As far as the not eating as many crickets as he used to goes........My male veiled goes through cycles of not liking crickets. He won't eat them but will eat silkworms or hornworms with gusto. So I feed those for a few days and try the crickets later on. Then he will eat the crickets with gusto. I think he just gets tired of them and holds out for something different like a large juicy hornworm. I'm looking at all the info you provided and I'm not seeing anything lacking. Continue to put him in the real sun when you can. I'm in the same area you are, and there may not be many more days this year that you can do that. He will get more secure if he has good foliage to hide in. The UV rays will still get through to him if he is hiding. I've thought about putting a ceramic heat lamp outside to prolong my real sunshine basking days. You might try that too. I think you feel a lot better now than you did when you started this thread. You are a good Daddy for caring so much about your boy. He is lucky to have you

 

[royden]

Thanks for the affirmation PardalisGirl. Yeah i am feeling much better, and I never thought of taking a ceramic heater outside. Good idea!

I'll probably see you at the bean pharms reptile show in oct!