jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
Yes, I’ve only been using them a month or so but so far all is going well.
The Naturalistic Approach in Humidity and Water Management Unleashed By: Petr Necas
- Thread starter jannb
- Start date
Yes, I’ve only been using them a month or so but so far all is going well.
That's one of the models I have. I use that on a single cage and have another "Vicks" with a larger reservoir to do several adjacent cages. They've both been running over a month without incident.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
So wanted to throw something else out with this.
Like bill said, it may be a good idea to throw in a third misting for the wet season. Chameleons are hardy enough to not tell us if a Wet/Dry season matters, however plants, especially orchids from the area, will let you know when they die.
I know most people, just use the common plants, that are not from the area and dont really care about all that. But in my biotope project, of all being local to panthers, the plants I am finding do care, alot. They need the high night humidity, and they need a wet/dry season. Just something to think about.
So I can do the panther keepers, one better
. From lots of plant research, I have found a way to figure out when that cycle should be for us in US (and I think the EU).
I think the season we are aiming for is going to be,
Wet Season - April to October,
Dry Season - October to April,
For a month to month, lets displace it. I attached a graph to the post.
This is just well educated guessing, from the Blooming/Growth cycles of Orchids and other plants there, and here, it may not be perfect to the day or to the week, or even by state, but its the best I can do at this time.
EDIT: Oops forgot to change the months of the points, you should be able to tell anyway lol.
Like bill said, it may be a good idea to throw in a third misting for the wet season. Chameleons are hardy enough to not tell us if a Wet/Dry season matters, however plants, especially orchids from the area, will let you know when they die.
I know most people, just use the common plants, that are not from the area and dont really care about all that. But in my biotope project, of all being local to panthers, the plants I am finding do care, alot. They need the high night humidity, and they need a wet/dry season. Just something to think about.
So I can do the panther keepers, one better
. From lots of plant research, I have found a way to figure out when that cycle should be for us in US (and I think the EU).I think the season we are aiming for is going to be,
Wet Season - April to October,
Dry Season - October to April,
For a month to month, lets displace it. I attached a graph to the post.
This is just well educated guessing, from the Blooming/Growth cycles of Orchids and other plants there, and here, it may not be perfect to the day or to the week, or even by state, but its the best I can do at this time.
EDIT: Oops forgot to change the months of the points, you should be able to tell anyway lol
.Attachments
So, here goes...
First off, I am not arguing against fogging at night. I will bring up the fact that I never did and as the temps in the enclosures went down after lights out the humidity levels went up. This, and the use of live plants seemed to maintain a good level in my situation. During the daylight I have always tried to mimic what might happen during the course of the day. I try to have lights come on gradually and even try to mimic the position of the sun with multiple basking lamps that come on at different times to increase intensity as the sun reaches its highest intensity outside. I imagine how this would create airflow and clouds to form (no, I was not making clouds) and it would have storms develop and rain themselves out (through misting sessions of varied length). I would have one longer session during the day so the plants would stay healthy and get a good cleaning. I have always believed that the enclosure should not be too wet at lights out because I know it will stay wet a longer time as the humidity levels rise as temps go down without the artificial lighting. I did not want to encourage the growth of mold, etc since I was not doing a bio-active setup.
I was worried that I almost never saw my chameleon drinking and when I did it was almost like he was annoyed that a water droplet was on his head. No signs of dehydration were present. I actually didn't even have a drainage system at first, and only added one after I realized that my plants required more water. I had discussions with members here about how they encouraged their animals to drink and tried many suggestions. Nothing seemed to work, but I didn't see the need and after a while I just went back to what I was doing. I did see little bites taken out of many leaves in the enclosure, and figured that he was getting additional water from that, but even now I am re-thinking that idea. I have seen Petr discuss how even during dry times the animals he encountered were not eating the vegetation for hydration. My chameleon was getting hydrated through feeders and his environment, and likely was maintaining healthy levels despite not fogging at night or having it wet before lights out. If he didn't want to drink then he didn't. If I noticed that he was drinking all the time I likely would have been concerned.
It is after all about keeping the chameleons healthy and offering everything we can to allow them as long a captive life as possible.
So @jannb I don't think you have been doing things wrong, but you are just trying a different approach. Not everyone is going to keep animals the same way. Not everyone can. There is no one absolute answer to anything and each situation has it's own unique circumstances. Who knows, I may try fogging at night. I may not. I bet if I tried to mimic the Moons lunar cycles in the enclosure I'd likely get attacked for having lights on at night. But wouldn't this be part of the Naturalistic Approach also?
Just keep rethinking what we already know and we can keep learning how to best care for these amazing creatures.
First off, I am not arguing against fogging at night. I will bring up the fact that I never did and as the temps in the enclosures went down after lights out the humidity levels went up. This, and the use of live plants seemed to maintain a good level in my situation. During the daylight I have always tried to mimic what might happen during the course of the day. I try to have lights come on gradually and even try to mimic the position of the sun with multiple basking lamps that come on at different times to increase intensity as the sun reaches its highest intensity outside. I imagine how this would create airflow and clouds to form (no, I was not making clouds
) and it would have storms develop and rain themselves out (through misting sessions of varied length). I would have one longer session during the day so the plants would stay healthy and get a good cleaning. I have always believed that the enclosure should not be too wet at lights out because I know it will stay wet a longer time as the humidity levels rise as temps go down without the artificial lighting. I did not want to encourage the growth of mold, etc since I was not doing a bio-active setup. I was worried that I almost never saw my chameleon drinking and when I did it was almost like he was annoyed that a water droplet was on his head. No signs of dehydration were present. I actually didn't even have a drainage system at first, and only added one after I realized that my plants required more water. I had discussions with members here about how they encouraged their animals to drink and tried many suggestions. Nothing seemed to work, but I didn't see the need and after a while I just went back to what I was doing. I did see little bites taken out of many leaves in the enclosure, and figured that he was getting additional water from that, but even now I am re-thinking that idea. I have seen Petr discuss how even during dry times the animals he encountered were not eating the vegetation for hydration. My chameleon was getting hydrated through feeders and his environment, and likely was maintaining healthy levels despite not fogging at night or having it wet before lights out. If he didn't want to drink then he didn't. If I noticed that he was drinking all the time I likely would have been concerned.
It is after all about keeping the chameleons healthy and offering everything we can to allow them as long a captive life as possible.
So @jannb I don't think you have been doing things wrong, but you are just trying a different approach. Not everyone is going to keep animals the same way. Not everyone can. There is no one absolute answer to anything and each situation has it's own unique circumstances. Who knows, I may try fogging at night. I may not. I bet if I tried to mimic the Moons lunar cycles in the enclosure I'd likely get attacked for having lights on at night
. But wouldn't this be part of the Naturalistic Approach also?Just keep rethinking what we already know and we can keep learning how to best care for these amazing creatures.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
So, here goes...
First off, I am not arguing against fogging at night. I will bring up the fact that I never did and as the temps in the enclosures went down after lights out the humidity levels went up. This, and the use of live plants seemed to maintain a good level in my situation. During the daylight I have always tried to mimic what might happen during the course of the day. I try to have lights come on gradually and even try to mimic the position of the sun with multiple basking lamps that come on at different times to increase intensity as the sun reaches its highest intensity outside. I imagine how this would create airflow and clouds to form (no, I was not making clouds
I was worried that I almost never saw my chameleon drinking and when I did it was almost like he was annoyed that a water droplet was on his head. No signs of dehydration were present. I actually didn't even have a drainage system at first, and only added one after I realized that my plants required more water. I had discussions with members here about how they encouraged their animals to drink and tried many suggestions. Nothing seemed to work, but I didn't see the need and after a while I just went back to what I was doing. I did see little bites taken out of many leaves in the enclosure, and figured that he was getting additional water from that, but even now I am re-thinking that idea. I have seen Petr discuss how even during dry times the animals he encountered were not eating the vegetation for hydration. My chameleon was getting hydrated through feeders and his environment, and likely was maintaining healthy levels despite not fogging at night or having it wet before lights out. If he didn't want to drink then he didn't. If I noticed that he was drinking all the time I likely would have been concerned.
It is after all about keeping the chameleons healthy and offering everything we can to allow them as long a captive life as possible.
So @jannb I don't think you have been doing things wrong, but you are just trying a different approach. Not everyone is going to keep animals the same way. Not everyone can. There is no one absolute answer to anything and each situation has it's own unique circumstances. Who knows, I may try fogging at night. I may not. I bet if I tried to mimic the Moons lunar cycles in the enclosure I'd likely get attacked for having lights on at night
Just keep rethinking what we already know and we can keep learning how to best care for these amazing creatures.
The real question is of course. What is your nightime humidity though? I think that too plays an important part. If you live in Florida and don't run a dehumidifier isn't your humidity already high at night? Just an example.
Okay so I looked at your profile, you do live in Florida lol. Well ya, then you have already been doing this haven't you? In a screen cage, in a high humidity environment, you will have e high night humidity. Have you measured your cages night time humidity?
Me living in Arizona I will not lol.
Yes, Florida, but so is Jann . That's why I say there is no one answer! Much of the year the air conditioner is on, so not the highest humidity. My biggest struggle is that I can't get as low a temp at night as I think I should have for "optimal" conditions. but the humidity does get to 50-60% overnight at times. Usually drops to about 40-45% between mistings at peak lighting.
. That's why I say there is no one answer! Much of the year the air conditioner is on, so not the highest humidity. My biggest struggle is that I can't get as low a temp at night as I think I should have for "optimal" conditions. but the humidity does get to 50-60% overnight at times. Usually drops to about 40-45% between mistings at peak lighting.
Scottsquatch
Chameleon Enthusiast
I guess the jump in length of chameleon captive life span would indicate that the fogging isn't necessarily a must. However, I do feel that if millions of years of evolution have made this an important part of hydration for wild chams, this method might further reduce stress on our captive chams. At the very least, I think it would probably be very beneficial for montane species. When I first got my graciliors, Janet pointed out to me that a properly hydrated gracilior will never drink. I have seen this to be a fact since I have been keeping them. It seems to me that this fogging technique will make it even easier for them to hydrate as intended, so I will definitely be doing this for any montane species I keep (unless I develop mold issues in their cages). Once I acquire a fogger and put this method into use, I will be sure to share my experiences with you all.
jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
Yes, I do live in FL but I have always took my chameleons outside during the daytime with the high humidity and misted them and dripped them during the day when it was hot to cool them, the wrong thing to do. At night I bring them inside because I am afraid for them to be outside overnight due to the wildlife and mosquitoe fogging. Inside we run the AC and it sucks almost all the humidity out of the air. I’ve had chameleons in the past with health issues that were most likely cause from the over watering. I am now trying to correct this problem.
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cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
This is true, the water cooling approach.
The best way to cool, I think would just be a fan, air exchange. Now I have seen alot of people aay that's not a good idea, but I'm not so sure.
Once again, I am learning this from Orchids. Alot of Madgascar orchids want a breeze on them all day from a fan, so I looked into this. It turns out that Madgascar the entire island has wind like every day. So I think a breeze is a good idea, it will help ventilation in closed up cages, and its very common for them in nature.
The part, that I am currently trying to figure out (in an enclosed cage) is how best to make the fans speeds vary.
A low fan speed, can help ventialtion and dry out during the day between mistings. Then a faster speed could provide a sense of wind, before a afternoon mist, and help cool temps for the cage. Easy, in and of itself, diffcult to fit into my system (sorry that's OT lol)
Then again, I really don't get the Humidity + Heat is a problem, at least not in an outdoor situation.
I know they say that, but if we think about it. The hottest days in Madgascar are during the wet season. When it's 90 degrees, it's 80% humidity.
So if the heat + Humidity is an issue, how does every Cham in the wild not constantly have RIs? I get the rain cools it down, when it comes, but is it not humid before that? And wouldn't what you are doing provide the same effect? It's going to cool down when the water sprays, just like a natural swamp cooler.
That's not the first time I have seen this said (I don't think in this thread though). Anyway I don't think you can attribute that like that.
Chameleons go weeks without food in the wild, they have parasites in the wild, they have predators in the wild, they have dry seasons that can kill in the wild. ECT ECT.
Just like I said before, before modern living Humans average life span was 30, there was people that lived much longer, most didn't. That wasn't because our needs changed, it was because we found ways to more consistently meet those needs. And of course a way to fix issues when those needs went wrong . Same exact thing with every other animal in captivity.
We are meeting their hydration needs, yes, however we are not doing it the correct way, that's okay, the needs are met. I get that point. However, meeting those needs in the way we do, may not be optimal, and presents new challenges like overwatered plants.
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dshuld
Chameleon Enthusiast
So, here goes...
First off, I am not arguing against fogging at night. I will bring up the fact that I never did and as the temps in the enclosures went down after lights out the humidity levels went up. This, and the use of live plants seemed to maintain a good level in my situation. During the daylight I have always tried to mimic what might happen during the course of the day. I try to have lights come on gradually and even try to mimic the position of the sun with multiple basking lamps that come on at different times to increase intensity as the sun reaches its highest intensity outside. I imagine how this would create airflow and clouds to form (no, I was not making clouds
I was worried that I almost never saw my chameleon drinking and when I did it was almost like he was annoyed that a water droplet was on his head. No signs of dehydration were present. I actually didn't even have a drainage system at first, and only added one after I realized that my plants required more water. I had discussions with members here about how they encouraged their animals to drink and tried many suggestions. Nothing seemed to work, but I didn't see the need and after a while I just went back to what I was doing. I did see little bites taken out of many leaves in the enclosure, and figured that he was getting additional water from that, but even now I am re-thinking that idea. I have seen Petr discuss how even during dry times the animals he encountered were not eating the vegetation for hydration. My chameleon was getting hydrated through feeders and his environment, and likely was maintaining healthy levels despite not fogging at night or having it wet before lights out. If he didn't want to drink then he didn't. If I noticed that he was drinking all the time I likely would have been concerned.
It is after all about keeping the chameleons healthy and offering everything we can to allow them as long a captive life as possible.
So @jannb I don't think you have been doing things wrong, but you are just trying a different approach. Not everyone is going to keep animals the same way. Not everyone can. There is no one absolute answer to anything and each situation has it's own unique circumstances. Who knows, I may try fogging at night. I may not. I bet if I tried to mimic the Moons lunar cycles in the enclosure I'd likely get attacked for having lights on at night
Just keep rethinking what we already know and we can keep learning how to best care for these amazing creatures.
I was thinking about how to mimic stars and moon light last night a little bit as odd as that may sound. I got to thinking about the fiber optic lights omw home and about how some were sold that "twinkled" a bit. Im not a big fan of blue moon lights but was thinking about how to do "twinkling" fiber optic lights on a larger scale. The ones I remember were fairly dim and around 4000k in color. But, like you, feel like if I was able to come up with a solution it would be an end of the world type reaction to it lol.
Scottsquatch
Chameleon Enthusiast
That's heretical thinking bro. LOL
dshuld
Chameleon Enthusiast
, sadly it is though. But seriously, how cool would it be to do something like this but in a more natural color to replicate the night sky? It is dimmable. I may look into it more after I finish my current projects lol.
Scottsquatch
Chameleon Enthusiast
I kinda like it. It might be cool on a really nice display cage.
dshuld
Chameleon Enthusiast
I think it's doable with a retrofit style t5ho light mounted inside a wood cover. Fill in around the retrofit with the fiber optics. Some fans for exhausting air out of the wood cover. Annnddd, now you know why my wife hates me thinking about projects. I just keep going
.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
I think it's doable with a retrofit style t5ho light mounted inside a wood cover. Fill in around the retrofit with the fiber optics. Some fans for exhausting air out of the wood cover. Annnddd, now you know why my wife hates me thinking about projects. I just keep going
That is a great idea, but I wouldn't do it with Fiber optics.
You won't be able to cover the whole cage with it for one. For 2, they wouldn't serve any purpose outside of stars.
I would look more at recreating the sun, then the stars. If you are dimly lighting the cage with a T5 or 2, that is where I would look to improve first. People around here complain about not being able to grow hibiscus and that doesn't even touch the surface of a real high light plant lol, hibiscus only needs like 3k FC, there is plants that need 4-5k.
Best bet for your idea IMO, is looking into a DIY LED. That way you can make a large bar, with LEDs spaced as your choosing. Then you can blast with 200ws of LEDs in the day time, complete with Dawn dusk cycles and all. And dim the whites down so low they just barely twinkle with not much visible light, just enough to see it's on at night.
You could go with pre built LEDs but the ones worth a damn, are not in a bar form, but a circle formation or multiples of them, so that kills the stars.
OldChamKeeper
Chameleon Enthusiast
Thread got interesting. <popcorn>
For advanced keepers with some understanding of their animals, I'm all for this. I have one cage that I let fog up for three hours a night. No issues.
My comment, and it was only a comment, is that as it initially read I could see a novice thinking they could just fog their animals instead of dealing with the mess a dripper makes, or the work involved in setting up some type of drainage system, etc etc. Using a fogger is fine, but it is not the primary source of hydration in captivity if a keeper is using a typical screen cage. And if they use a glass cage...they better understand about proper airflow and what a URI looks like.
Good discussion, but like Decadancin mentioned, there is more than one way to take care of our critters. It really comes down to the place you live in, what you can provided, and your understanding of your animal. Can you look at it and know if it is hydrated? If it not? To me, and I'm not being a dickus here, to me the first test between a novice and an experienced keeper is being able to look at the animal and tell if it is hydrated.
For advanced keepers with some understanding of their animals, I'm all for this. I have one cage that I let fog up for three hours a night. No issues.
My comment, and it was only a comment, is that as it initially read I could see a novice thinking they could just fog their animals instead of dealing with the mess a dripper makes, or the work involved in setting up some type of drainage system, etc etc. Using a fogger is fine, but it is not the primary source of hydration in captivity if a keeper is using a typical screen cage. And if they use a glass cage...they better understand about proper airflow and what a URI looks like.
Good discussion, but like Decadancin mentioned, there is more than one way to take care of our critters. It really comes down to the place you live in, what you can provided, and your understanding of your animal. Can you look at it and know if it is hydrated? If it not? To me, and I'm not being a dickus here, to me the first test between a novice and an experienced keeper is being able to look at the animal and tell if it is hydrated.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Right but let's be honest, do you think newbies are going to take the time to build a proper fogger? Or set it up correctly or any of that?
Nope, they are going to buy the junk the pet store sells them.
I think Chameleons and all animals should cost a whole lot more, my grandfather says that all the time about dogs. If people had to pay a 10k lincense fee to own a dog, they would take much better care of their dogs.
Of course it should be a lincensing not a higher animal price, because that brings in the scammers. My grandfather's girlfriend just lost a Yorkie today, it's been at the vet for 2 weeks, pretty much everyday. It had all kinds of problems due to inbreeding and crap for that AKC registry. Is truly sickening. It had heart defects, a liver shunt, lung issues, the list goes on. And the kicker, they charged her 3500 for this dog 4 months ago, for it to now die, racking up another 1800 at the vet in the last 2 weeks. The breeders reply, not our problem.
dshuld
Chameleon Enthusiast
Realistically atm, it's more of a "mental exercise" type thing lol. Something to occupy my brain with during times of boredom though I may try it one day
. Not sure my wife would be happy if I started another project before finishing the one I'm working on now either even though she likes the look of the above fiber optic stars .
