Tongue problem and Montana vet recommendations

[USSTrioceros]

My Jackson, Phineas, hurt his tongue. Not sure if it was over extended, bludgeoned while feeding, or what. He's been to the vet already for the inital look over and a secondary trip to retrieve a swallowed tongue. I just got him to eat a small hornworm for the first time in 5 days. I am so relieved.

I'm hoping for some feedback, bonus if someone has dealt with this. Obviously, his tongue is inflamed and bright red. That is expected. I noticed tonight it seemed like the globby, sticky part folds up to the roof of the mouth. It makes it hard for him to eat because it's in the way. Also, I had to fight him a bit to get the tip of his tongue back in his mouth. I've looked at diagrams but wonder if that sticky part is supposed to slide back over the bone, too. Is there a spot where it's suppsed to rest in the mouth? Maybe I'm not finding a good diagram.

Secondly, how long should I expect (approximately) to see improvement in the tongue. I'm estimating 2-3 weeks of careful feeding. For anyone who's had a cham with this problem, what improvement did you see first? Tongue color change, less inflammation, improved activity levels, etc.? Obviously I want him 100% by morning but this was a pretty bad injury. What about signs it's getting worse?

Third, do silkworms have the biting potential hornworms do? I want to get some for him as soon as weather permits. I'll be feeding him squishy things for a bit. I'll keep an eye out for fresh bug molts, too. He's not a fan of soldier fly larvae.

Lastly, if anyone is in Western Montana, do you know a veterinarian versed in Chameleons? I'm in Missoula. Our doc here is great but she's a bit more tuned to snakes, geckos, and bearded dragons. I'm grateful for her, though. If she's not available for some reason, I want another name or two. I am approximately 2-3 hours from Kalispell, Great Falls, and Bozeman in MT. Same for Spokane, WA.

Thanks in advance. Other advice is welcome.

Care info: 2x2x4, UVB T5 5.0, LED grow lights, ceramic heat emitter (until I can find a consistent source for incandescent heat lamps) misting morning and night, humidifier 12-6am, humidity levels kinda suck and will be adding side panels; ambient temps 70-73F, basking 80-82F, highest branch is 5-6in from UVB and levels usually read about 90-95uW/cm² (older solarmeter); gobs of plants, gobs of chameleon highways and hidey spots. The only iffy thing I have at the moment is a cat water fountain to make water more accessible during healing. He drinks from it but he's more of a drip drinker.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I have had a couple toungue issues with my chameleons. They are a serious problems to have with chameleons. I would keep your chameleon warm, comfortable, and take your chameleon to a expert reptile vet to properly take care of this issue. Good luck!

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[kinyonga]

There are quite a few reasons for tongue issues to occur…such as hyperextention, (injury where the tongue has been caught on something and the chameleon overstretches the tongue trying to get it off or the insect was too attached to a surface in the cage or to tongs) …or issues like MBD (that can lead to the muscles being weak and the hyoid spike that the tongue is stored on being weak and becoming crooked as a result of calcium issues)….or infection…or even a bite from an insect.

With hyperextension, rest will sometimes give it time to heal… as long as the chameleon can keep its tongue retracted and stored in its mouth. It won’t be able to eat/chew obviously, if the tongue is hanging out…and the tongue will become necrotic if it dries out because it can’t retract. In cases like this the tongue will need to be amputated at the end of the hyoid spike…and the chameleon will then eat like other lizards do by chasing after the insect. If the chameleon can keep the tongue in, and is hand fed so it won’t try to extend its tongue, it can heal.

Just a warning, but with amputation from my limited experience with amputations,, if too much of the tongue is left hanging (because the amputation wasn’t made close to the end of the spike), the chameleon may not be able to cope with the tongue missing and keep trying to adjust it and eventually die because it won’t eat.

Sometimes, when the tongue can’t be retracted on the hyoid bone, the chameleon will swallow the tongue and the tongue will be gone (digested).

Chameleons can do well without a tongue as long as they can figure out how to chase the insect down like other lizards do.

I’ve likely missed a few things I should have said…so anyone else, please chime in if you have additional information that I’ve missed.

You may want to see these…
https://cdn.ymaws.com/members.arav.org/resource/resmgr/Files/Proceedings_2013/15.pdf

 

[kinyonga]

Any update?

One more site you might like to read…
http://www.muchadoaboutchameleons.com/2012/07/strange-case-of-charlottes-tongue.html

 

[USSTrioceros]

Thanks for the article! He's "ok." Drinking but has only eaten once. It was traumatizing for both of us. He has that "Damn, that looks tasty but...." expression.

Right now seeing his tongue is hit or miss. Sometimes I see it, sometimes not. He just won't open his mouth for me without antagonizing him and my other male. (Territorial posturing.) I can't tell if he partially/wholly swallowed his tongue again or if I'm imagining things. His tongue was looking better initially. The pink grey was returning but the blobby bit was folding up into the roof of his mouth. It didn't seem to be retracting over the hyoid spike/horn. I gave the update to the doc. I'm currently trying to decide if another vet visit is a good idea or if he just needs more time. I don't have anyone to help hold him while I work on him. Kinda frustrated because I know he's uncomfortable.

 

[USSTrioceros]

Another update: he swallowed it again. The doc is working on retrieving it right now. I have this weekend to choose how to move forward. Amputation or sutures. Not sure of part of his issue is neurological or if it's just physical.

 

[kinyonga]

You said…he ”has only eaten once. It was traumatizing for both of us”…I wouldn’t let him shoot his tongue out right now at a insect.I would try to touch the insect to his mouth and put it in head first when he oo no his mouth…or while he’s drinking, sneak an insect in. Let the tongue rest.

You said…”The blobby bit was folding up into the roof of his mouth”…it should be stored in the base of the mouth where the rest of the tongue is.
If it’s too swollen or the muscles are too weak, it won’t retract completely.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Another update: he swallowed it again. The doc is working on retrieving it right now. I have this weekend to choose how to move forward. Amputation or sutures. Not sure of part of his issue is neurological or if it's just physical.

I have got my digits crossed all goes well.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[USSTrioceros]

You said…he ”has only eaten once. It was traumatizing for both of us”…I wouldn’t let him shoot his tongue out right now at a insect.I would try to touch the insect to his mouth and put it in head first when he oo no his mouth…or while he’s drinking, sneak an insect in. Let the tongue rest.

You said…”The blobby bit was folding up into the roof of his mouth”…it should be stored in the base of the mouth where the rest of the tongue is.
If it’s too swollen or the muscles are too weak, it won’t retract completely.

Thank you. I was directly hand feeding him at that point. It was hard to get it around his folded tongue to get into his throat. That's why it was traumatizing.

That said, he managed to swallow it again and I didn't notice in time. The vet wasn't able get his tongue out all the way. So, he's now missing part of it. I'll just have to watch him. After a few rest days, I'll make sure he sorts out drinking without aspirating and ensure any feeders get in the right spot to be swallowed. If he needs a full amputation, I'll make sure it happens.

 

[kinyonga]

I should have added, If the tongue is so swollen that the insect can’t get past the end of the tongue, you will need to use a needleless syringe to feed him a slurry of “bug juice” or carnivore care and make sure the food is well down his throat so he doesn’t aspirate it. This still might be necessary until he can get back to eating insects on his own.

Bug juice…
https://www.adcham.com/html/husbandry/bug-juice.html

You said…”So, he's now missing part of it”..…now that part of the tongue is missing but if more than is needed to cover the hyoid bone…this often makes the chameleon unable to cope with not shooting the tongue out. In my somewhat limited experience with tongues that are not all there, only enough tongue to cover the hyoid bone being left works to help them cope with it not being able to be shot out. If there’s any more than that left, the part past the end of the bone flaps around and makes them less able to cope with the blobby end of the tongue missing. Hope I explained this well enough.

 

[USSTrioceros]

I should have added, If the tongue is so swollen that the insect can’t get past the end of the tongue, you will need to use a needleless syringe to feed him a slurry of “bug juice” or carnivore care and make sure the food is well down his throat so he doesn’t aspirate it. This still might be necessary until he can get back to eating insects on his own.

Bug juice…
https://www.adcham.com/html/husbandry/bug-juice.html

You said…”So, he's now missing part of it”..…now that part of the tongue is missing but if more than is needed to cover the hyoid bone…this often makes the chameleon unable to cope with not shooting the tongue out. In my somewhat limited experience with tongues that are not all there, only enough tongue to cover the hyoid bone being left works to help them cope with it not being able to be shot out. If there’s any more than that left, the part past the end of the bone flaps around and makes them less able to cope with the blobby end of the tongue missing. Hope I explained this well enough.

I was looking for that recipe, so thank you. I should have gone with my gut and made some in the first place.

I think I understand what you're saying about how much tissue is left. I know it's nit a full amputation but I'm not sure what's left either. We've not tackled eating yet, but I got some water in him via a syringe. I could tell he was testing things out. I bet it feels crazy to him. We might have enough tongue for him to cope well.

He's overall looking ok today. His girlfriend on the other side of the room still thinks he's hot, so that's good. I told him he needed to heal more before he can snog other chameleons.

 

[MzLaurie]

Well I would put him on the carnivore diet asap. That way you don’t have to worry about him losing precious needed weight. You can get a rubber extension for the tip of the syringe that way you can open his mouth and administer from the side. I would try sutures before any amputation but that’s just my opinion. I know these guys heal slowly and many die from tongue injuries so I know you are doing everything you can to help your boy. Oh the tip on the tongue should rest behind the front of his mouth covering the lung opening. The lung opening needs to be taken into consideration with all efforts too. I am sending healing prayers to you both.

 

[USSTrioceros]

Oh, by the way, we weren't able to save the blobby bit at the front. He still has some tongue, as the vet wasn't prepped for a surgery. This might ve a good thing. I got water (carefully) in him today. Working on getting ingredients for bug juice. Thanks for the input, folks. I understand the situation much better and feel way more confident to move forward.

 

[MzLaurie]

The vet can give you Carnivore Diet
As ell as the feeding syringe with the rubber end. Do not feed him with tongues as they can cause injury too. You and he will have to develope a feeding ritual that works for both of you. It can be done and sometimes you have to think outside the box. The blobby thing as u call It actually wraps around the food so it doesn’t go anywhere as it is retracted. You will have to get him to open up so you can put a feeder in once he has healed. You might have to pry the front of his mouth open and pop in a small easy feeder like a wax worm at first then graduate to hornworms and silks.

 

[JacksJill]

I don't like to use carnivore diet long term in Jackson's. It contains animal protein and high levels of supplement that chameleons do not process well and can lead to gout and other problems. I force feed with powdered crickets. Fortunately it is easily available on line as many body builders now use it. This is the brand I use Link There are many others but you don't want flavoring, sugars or vitamin additives. Add your own supplements for the Jackson's schedule you use. My Jackson's Supplement Schedule hopefully it's one of these.

 

[jannb]

I don't like to use carnivore diet long term in Jackson's. It contains animal protein and high levels of supplement that chameleons do not process well and can lead to gout and other problems. I force feed with powdered crickets. Fortunately it is easily available on line as many body builders now use it. This is the brand I use Link There are many others but you don't want flavoring, sugars or vitamin additives. Add your own supplements for the Jackson's schedule you use. My Jackson's Supplement Schedule hopefully it's one of these.

What an excellent suggestion. I’m going to order some just to keep on hand for when I might need it.

 

[JacksJill]

What an excellent suggestion. I’m going to order some just to keep on hand for when I might need it.

I store mine in the freezer.

 

[kinyonga]

Glad I posted the bug juice recipe for you!

You said…”I think I understand what you're saying about how much tissue is left. I know it's nit a full amputation but I'm not sure what's left either”…and…”we weren't able to save the blobby bit at the front”…with the blobby part missing, the chameleon won’t be able to shoot for bugs and pull them back into its mouth…and sometimes, depending on whether the muscle is damaged or not, the rest of the tongue that is not covering the hyoid bone can annoy the chameleon to the point where it will stop eating and eventually die. I think it’s because it can’t adjust to it not folding up over the hyoid bone and makes the chameleon uncomfortable…it doesn’t understand why it can’t shoot it out but it knows it’s not back where it needs to be…so just watch for signs of that…like constantly adjusting its mouth or even opening its mouth and trying to extend the hyoid bone almost like it’s gagging.

Carnivore care IMHO should only be used as a last resort…as it’s not a proper diet for them, as @JacksJill has said.

Force feeding should only be a last resort…it’s better to stick an insect BETWEEN its teeth while it’s mouth is opening and shutting while drinking… until it learns to eat on its own by chasing after the insects like other lizards do.