Tongue Problem

[Vibrant Chameleons]

I got a new Nosy Be cham the other day from a breeder around here. The cham is roughly 9 months old.
Tonight, I noticed that he has to get right up beside his prey. He then shoots his tongue out really slowly almost like he cant grab with his tongue, rather only hope it sticks to the superworm with the end of the tongue.

Will he ever be able to shoot his tongue properly again or what's going on here. Has anyone seen something similar?

 

[Chill]

From my expierence chams shoot there tongues slow either becuse they are cold or sick. I had a jackson's that recently passed :-( but when i forst got him he almost had to head butt the food to get it. It could be that he is sick. Does he look good otherwise? it could also maybe be an eye issue but im not too sure.

Hope i could help,

-Chill

 

[Vibrant Chameleons]

From my expierence chams shoot there tongues slow either becuse they are cold or sick. I had a jackson's that recently passed :-( but when i forst got him he almost had to head butt the food to get it. It could be that he is sick. Does he look good otherwise? it could also maybe be an eye issue but im not too sure.

Hope i could help,

-Chill

Hes totally healthy except for the tongue issue. He's able to eat, it just looks different.

 

[Fidel]

My male ambilobe has had the same problem from around the same age as yours. I never quite pinpointed the problem. My best guess was that he developed it from some type of vitamin/mineral defecincy early on, and then his tounge never regained full function. He can shoot out his tounge, he just has no control or aim at all, so he usually just has to get really close like you descibed. He is healthy and doing just fine otherwise. All I can say is be prepared to cup feed your cham, maybe forever, and to let me know if you find out the cause. Good luck.

 

[Trace]

Who's the breeder?

 

[bucky]

Well..my cham gets close to his food too,he has an eye problem we are working on.

 

[kinyonga]

Tongue dysfunction can be caused by a nutritional imbalance.

 

[PardalisGirl]

Tongue Issue.......

I vote for a prior nutritional issue too. In what I know about you from other posts you know how to properly care for your chams so the nutritional issue should be fixed with you. You might consider getting a fecal check done to rule out parasites. MBD issues can cause tongue problems but you would notice the other signs of MBD. Parasites can cause nutritional issues too. I would trust your instinct that something is off and get a simple vet check done.

 

[Vibrant Chameleons]

Thanks all for the replies. I appreciate it.

Pardalisgirl, I also believe it was from prior nutritional imbalances but I can't be totally positive. He's very healthy and at a very good weight otherwise, so he's obviously had no problems eating with the tongue problem. I'm just a little upset as to why I wasn't informed of the issue when I picked him up. Once I find a fecal sample from him, I think I'll take it in to get it checked out.

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

It's a nutritional issue
they can't visualize and triangulate the food
so they get up close to it.
Once that close they can't fully fire their tongue at the prey
so it's a careful and slow operation.

give a good broad spectrum vitamin supplement is required
I've forgotten what is specifically lacking that produces this
you can performs a search and perhaps find out yourself.
also give them lots of light for metabolism.

 

[Fidel]

Did you ever get the fecal done? I'm still curious about this. Does anyone know exactly what nutritional deficiency can cause this, or is it in general?

 

[Hollowhead]

with my chameleon the previous owner said he shot his tongue at the side of there glass cage (i know...) and his tongue started to swell up and stayed like that for awhile. so it is possible he hit his tongue on something hard which could have hurt him and he is just a little unsure of shooting it??

 

[Will Hayward]

Derrik,

I suggest exchanging some words with Harry about this. He has also had tongue issues with a nosy be panther, from the same breeder (If it's who we are all thinking). There is some speculation as to weather it's a problem with the genetics, with lack of new blood, or the vitamins in the feeders, or a combination maybe.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

Will, you are absolutely correct; it is the same problem, the same locale and the same breeder.

Healthy in every respect except vision. Can't throw its tongue straight and walks its vine and bumps into the screen at the other end. He is also a dirt eater , which suggests a lack of something in his nutritional intake. I have tried going heavy on the herptivite and minerallO, but it never resolved. He is also about 1.5 years old and never so much as bobbed a head at a female either.

Could this be a vit A deficiency????????

 

[Will Hayward]

A difficiency should somewhat subside if the chameleon goes into your care young and develops receiving vitamins and etc. I think that it may be genetic. Remember the one user on Reptiles Canada that had another case of this? witht eh same blood? There's too many links. It seem's very rare among the other locales that are up here, but then, they are all less common.

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy,

If it really is an eye problem, there is a possibility that it could be linked to a vitamin A deficiency.

A line out of Mader's vet book regarding vitamin A hypovitaminosis (shortage):
"Affected Veiled and Panther Chameleons show ocular lesions, respiratory dysfunction, spinal kinking, dysecdysis (shedding problems), and an increased formation of hemipenal plugs."

Here's of one of my old posts:

Howdy Guy,

Here's a Cut/Paste from another forum of my old 2005 post on Vit A...


The subject of supplementation certainly has a lot of controversy surrounding it. Vitamin A has had its ups and downs all by itself too. I was reading my latest library addition; "Reptile Medicine and Surgery", 2nd Edition, edited by Douglas R. Mader, MS, DVM, DABVP. It just started shipping a few weeks ago. It's an extensive update of the original 1996 version. It has increased from around 500 pages to over 1200 pages and over 900 images. Chapters are written by Mader and 72 contributing authors, mostly Vets.

I was especially interested in the conclusions about Vit. A and chameleons in chapter 18 (written by Susan Donoghue). I'm not sure just how new that data is but the conclusion that most chameleons are deficient in a source of preformed Vit A and not just beta-carotene got me worried. This deficiency is supposed to be causing real problems, especially noted in Veileds. That got me to thinking about my chameleons (1 Panther and 2 Veileds) as well as another Veiled that I was taking care of for some friends who went out of town for 10 days. Their female Veiled began having troubles staying upright on its branches and vines a month or two ago. She was looked at by an exotic vet who prescribed liquid Ca and more UVB (sunshine). The diagnosis seemed reasonable (she had produced 3 successful clutches) but the treatment didn't change anything for the first few weeks+. While she was in my care, Mader's book arrived. I read about the Vit A issue and decided to give her a couple of Ca/D3/Vit A dustings. I had some ReptoCal product that someone had given me but that I'd never used before. In its many ingredients, it listed Vit. A at 219,900 IU/kg. I dusted with it for 2-3 feedings and she actually began showing improvement after about a week or so. Her keepers returned and after a few more days they said that she was now climbing some and that her stability seems to continue to improve. It could be that the liquid Ca/UVB finally kicked-in or the Vit A did something useful or both.

I knew that there was some controversy about preformed Vit. A verses beta-carotene. I, along with many other chameleon keepers, use the Rep-Cal Herptivite multivitamin product that only has beta-carotene as a vitamin A source and no preformed vitamin A. Mader's book talks about how lizards like chameleons don't process beta-carotene like herbivores do thus leading to the chameleon's troubles. I'm in the process of re-thinking my supplementation. I'm thinking about either a replacement for the Rep-Cal Herptivite product or, more likely, adding some source of preformed Vit A to the dusting schedule (without overdosing). Mine usually get Ca/D3 every other week and Ca no/D3 on any superworms (poor Cah) when not using Ca/D3. They get Herptivite once a month. This was based on suggestions from my vet, Dr. Greek, who has worked on 500-1000 chameleons. My chameleons get 4-8 hours of sunshine when the weather permits (not lately), along with 12 hrs of Reptisun 5.0 every day.

My biggest fear forms around my (unfounded?) concern that preformed vitamin A is easy to overdose. It is one of those vitamins that is stored in the liver etc. and can take months to use up what is stored. Too much can even contribute to a kind of nutritional MBD among other problems including death.

The book recommends a treatment (hypovitaminosis A illness symptoms present) dosage of:
Vitamin A (liquid?) @ 2000 IU per 30 grams body weight once a week for 2 weeks.

Using powder: Dusts containing 86 IU retinyl ester /g DM (dry matter), followed by 60 IU /g DM.

Then as a maintenance level dietary dose:
Dusts providing up to 60 IU/g DM or 5-9 IU/g cricket DM. (I didn't find where it mentions how often to dust at that dosage....)

Many months ago my panther went through a round of gular edema. The basic fix was to reduce vitamin and mineral usage to the present levels. I was using Ca/D3 and multivitamins closer to something like several times a week. He's been fine ever since.

My two adopted adult veileds (about 5yrs, 3yrs old), on the other hand, have been showing signs that got me to wondering about vitamin A among other things. Each symptom, stand alone, wouldn't necessarily cause me to jump for vitamin A but altogether, I wonder about it a bit more. The oldest guy, Grandpa, takes weeks to months to complete a shed. He doesn't shoot more than a couple of inches to snag food. Even though he does seem to be able to climb from top to bottom to top again in his 2x2x4 screen enclosure, he seems to be a bit shaky doing it. He will only eat a couple of silkworms every other day and ignores supers, roaches, waxworms, crickets. His personality isn't as "outgoing" as it was when I first adopted him back in March. He was a super eater back then too.

Timid, the 3yr old male veiled's only noticeable symptom at the moment is the weeks to months long shedding.

These two veileds have one thing in common: The previous keeper had used the ReptoCal Ca/D3/Vitamins dust with preformed vitamin A in it. I hadn't thought much about it when I adopted the chameleons and switched them over to the Miner-All (I), (O) products and Herptivite for multivitamins which was what my panther was already getting.

When I visited my vet a month or so ago, he didn't think that anything was very wrong with the long shedding to the extent that treatment was required. Many Keepers say that old chameleons have more and more trouble with sheds. I haven't asked him about my recent vitamin A concerns yet. I gave the veileds one feeding dusted with that ReptoCal product a few weeks ago and I'm still deciding what to do next.

If anyone out there has been using a multivitamin with preformed vitamin A in it or adding it to your regiment with success (whatever that means??), I'd like to know which product it is, dosage, and how long you've been using it. Also, if you have any of your own vitamin A hypo and hyper experiences, please share them!

 

[Lancecham]

More than like it is caused by nutritional problems as most everyone has said. It is also possible that the tongue is injured or perhaps was born that way.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

I dealt with this problem years back with a Jackson. There used to be an old liquid Vit A supplement made for turtles. I don't remember the brand exactly. Terra was it I think. We gave it to the Jackson daily (back then we didn't know about OD'ing your critter on Vit A of all things) and it improved it's aim considerably over some months. Instead of trying my "shotgun" technique I'd suggest a trip to your Herp Vet and bring him the info you've gathered to help in the diagnosis.

If other animals are having the same issue from the same breeder/dealer then nutrition is a viable problem.

 

[chamlover]

Just wondering. Is it possible for the vet to do a blood sample and check for vitamin or mineral deficiencies? These guys are so little, its hard to think of them being able to take out enough blood to do all the checks they need to do. But can they?
Debby

 

[Fidel]

Dave, did anyone ever respond to your request for products with pre-formed vit. A? I use heptivite, but am still suspicious of hypovitaminosis A, not only in my male panther but in some of my dart frogs as well. Some of the froggers use a product called dendrocare, which supposedly has vitamin A. I noticed in your post that another symptom is increased seminal plugs, does anyone know how much is normal? My panther seems to produce quite a bit, but I have nothing to compare what is normal.