Urgent! My chameleon needs surgery or she'll die. Need advice please.

[Djborx]

My female veiled has become egg bound, this is the first time she is gravid also, just left the vet and according to him it's too late for her, she won't be able to lay the eggs anymore. Apparently her calcium levels are very high (4.18) which means the eggs are fully formed and since they are not located where they should be (by the oviduct or something like that) she won't be able to lay them anymore.
The vet says that the only thing we can do is surgery, this way, he will remove the eggs and also the ovaries, so she will never lay eggs again.
I need to let him know by the end of the day (I'm in Europe, it's already late afternoon here) whether I want to go ahead with the surgery so he can schedule it for tomorrow since apparently she doesn't have much time. If we don't do the surgery tomorrow we will have to wait till friday.
Has anyone in here gone through this kind of surgery? Do you know any cases of egg and ovary removal surgery?
I have been told that although the surgery itself maybe a success, the long term outcome is not that good.
I would really appreciate any feedback or advice, I'm very torn right now (I'm leaning towards surgery) and I'm not even sure if she is definitely egg bound. She doesn't look unhealthy at all (she is barely eating though) and still active.
If you need more details regarding her or what I have done in order to avoid this, please have a look at this other thread I opened last week.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/gravid-veiled-i-think-doesnt-want-lay-eggs-135672/
Thanks!

 

[jannb]

Do you trust this vet? How many times has he preformed this surgery before? What was the out come of his these surgeries? How is your female doing? Is she still eating? Still active? Is she laying in the bottom of her cage or sitting around with her eyes closed?

 

[Djborx]

I think I trust him, he seems knowledgeable and he has even told me that he won't be offended if I wanted a second opinion, but I don't have any references of him, I have seen him 3 times in the last 4 days but that's it, I didn't know him before all this egg drama.
He says he is very experienced in this kind of surgery.
Ninja (that's my chams name) is doing well actually, she is basking all the time on top of her cage with the eyes fully open, as if nothing was going on. She has been drinking water and her colours are fine, when I move her to the laying bin (she has 2 in her cage but I still move her to another one for an hour or so just in case) she tries to get out all the time and she is moving around. The only thing is that she is barely eating, she only had one worm today (and none yesterday).
Do you think that the vet might have made a wrong diagnosis? or that he is in for the cash?

 

[Chase]

I think I trust him, he seems knowledgeable and he has even told me that he won't be offended if I wanted a second opinion, but I don't have any references of him, I have seen him 3 times in the last 4 days but that's it, I didn't know him before all this egg drama.
He says he is very experienced in this kind of surgery.
Ninja (that's my chams name) is doing well actually, she is basking all the time on top of her cage with the eyes fully open, as if nothing was going on. She has been drinking water and her colours are fine, when I move her to the laying bin (she has 2 in her cage but I still move her to another one for an hour or so just in case) she tries to get out all the time and she is moving around. The only thing is that she is barely eating, she only had one worm today (and none yesterday).
Do you think that the vet might have made a wrong diagnosis? or that he is in for the cash?

I have never had an experience with surgery like this, but if you decide to not go with what this vet suggests, you need to make sure she has privacy and doesn't see you. They don't like doing it if they're being watched, so make sure she cannot see you. Is she drinking still?

Chase

 

[jannb]

I really hate to said anything but I believe if she were mine I would completely leave her alone. Don't even let her lay eyes on me and give her some more time to lay on her own. IMHO she doesn't sound like she's in trouble yet.

Please PM kinyonga and ask her to read this post and offer her opintion. She has more experience with veileds than anyone else here. https://www.chameleonforums.com/members/kinyonga/

Edit: However I feel it would be important to do the surgery before she gets to weak.

 

[Djborx]

I have never had an experience with surgery like this, but if you decide to not go with what this vet suggests, you need to make sure she has privacy and doesn't see you. They don't like doing it if they're being watched, so make sure she cannot see you. Is she drinking still?

She has privacy indeed, her 4 foot cage has towels around it, all sides are covered now. I can only see her via the webcam I have installed inside the cage.
Unless the noise disturbs her, tv, vacuum cleaner and those things... but I wouldn't imagine so. What do you think?
Her laying bin also has 100% privacy.
She didn't drink much today but she drank quite a bit yesterday.

I really hate to said anything but I believe if she were mine I would completely leave her alone. Don't even let her lay eyes on me and give her some more time to lay on her own. IMHO she doesn't sound like she's in trouble yet.

You might be right, maybe she just needs more time... The vet put it all so black and white that I am really panicking.
Maybe I shouldn't even take her to the laying bin, leave her be in her cage, do what you say, leaver her completely alone.
I will PM kinyonga. Thanks!

 

[eat2muchrice]

I need to let him know by the end of the day (I'm in Europe, it's already late afternoon here) whether I want to go ahead with the surgery so he can schedule it for tomorrow since apparently she doesn't have much time. If we don't do the surgery tomorrow we will have to wait till friday.

Sounds like pressure, IMO when people pressure you they are trying to push a sale.

 

[jannb]

I would not be moving her around or making any contact with her at all.

Be sure to read my edit in post # 5 above.

 

[Djborx]

Who knows eat2muchrice ...

 

[Djborx]

I would not be moving her around or making any contact with her at all.
Be sure to read my edit in post # 5 above.

Got it! Yes, saw the edit. She still looks so healthy though but of course, I'm no expert. Thanks!

Sounds like pressure, IMO when people pressure you they are trying to push a sale.

Yeah, you might be right... Or he could be genuinely serious... Who knows...
It's too late now anyway, so if anything, surgery will have to be on Friday. I have to let him know by tomorrow though so he can schedule it accordingly. The pressure!

 

[betzjen]

Ask vet to give oxytocin injection. If she cannot expel the eggs on her own then proceed to surgery. I have performed the surgery several times but only after I've tried oxytocin and it doesn't work. Good luck.

 

[Djborx]

Ask vet to give oxytocin injection. If she cannot expel the eggs on her own then proceed to surgery. I have performed the surgery several times but only after I've tried oxytocin and it doesn't work. Good luck.

We have already tried oxytocin, twice, but it didn't work unfortunately. If you don't mind, can you let me know about the surgery please? How risky is it? What's the long-term outcome? Are there usually complications (during and after surgery)? Thanks!

 

[Djborx]

She is going to sleep now. She obviously looks quite chubby but the position doesn't help either. Healthwise, she doesn't look bad I think?

 

[Leslie11]

eggs

Did the vet mention oxytocin to stimulate egg laying? What ever you decide, I would keep the eggs.

 

[Djborx]

We already tried oxytocin without much success. The eggs are infertile anyway.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

If she has been gravid for longer than she's supposed to be and oxytocin didn't work then now is the time to do the surgery. A lot of people try to wait longer and then the female becomes weak and the surgery is much more risky. The last veiled I did the surgery on had been gravid for 60+ days and oxytocin was not successful. She was still active, basking and eating so she was nice and strong for the surgery. I removed 65 egg follicles and her ovaries so she wouldn't lay again. There are always risks but she did great! And I'm not sure why you heard they don't do well long-term. Generally they do great and have less strain on their bodies from to having to lay eggs. The biggest risk if she does well during surgery is if there is any infection in the body cavity after surgery or even a microscopic amount of reproductive tissue was accidentally left behind and she starts to make eggs again. But without surgery she will die of being egg bound if she can't lay them.

 

[bradley]

I had the same problem with my female.

My female did lay a few eggs after three oxytocin injections though but she still had 60 inside her. She went in for surgery and came through it well. She wouldn't eat after though and died about a week after surgery.

My biggest piece of advice would be have surgery as soon as possible! The weaker they get the less chance they will pull through.

Sorry for the quick reply

 

[Djborx]

If she has been gravid for longer than she's supposed to be and oxytocin didn't work then now is the time to do the surgery. A lot of people try to wait longer and then the female becomes weak and the surgery is much more risky. The last veiled I did the surgery on had been gravid for 60+ days and oxytocin was not successful. She was still active, basking and eating so she was nice and strong for the surgery. I removed 65 egg follicles and her ovaries so she wouldn't lay again. There are always risks but she did great! And I'm not sure why you heard they don't do well long-term. Generally they do great and have less strain on their bodies from to having to lay eggs. The biggest risk if she does well during surgery is if there is any infection in the body cavity after surgery or even a microscopic amount of reproductive tissue was accidentally left behind and she starts to make eggs again. But without surgery she will die of being egg bound if she can't lay them.

Thank you very much for your reply. Really helpful information.
My veiled has only been showing symptoms for over a week and a half and still looks very strong, the vet wants to operate this week already. I am convinced that she will need surgery is she doesn't lay, but shouldn't we wait a bit longer to see if she can still lay the eggs? I wouldn't want her to go through this experience if we can avoid it. What do you think?

I had the same problem with my female.

My female did lay a few eggs after three oxytocin injections though but she still had 60 inside her. She went in for surgery and came through it well. She wouldn't eat after though and died about a week after surgery.

My biggest piece of advice would be have surgery as soon as possible! The weaker they get the less chance they will pull through.

Sorry for the quick reply

Thanks Bradley! Somebody else told me about the chameleon dying after surgery. I'm sorry for your loss.
If you don't mind me asking, how long did she show symptoms for before surgery?

 

[ChameleonMom]

Hi there, I think I replied in your other post, but I've been alerted to this one and was awed to comment with any advice. First of all your gir is beautiful! She is very chubby and is probably very uncomfortable that is why she isn't eating. I currently have a gravid gal who has been off of food for a week - don't worry about ack of food intake too much, so long as she is stil hydrating herself. In the past I have had a veiled girl unable to lay. She had the eggs and her ovaries removed and honestly she came through the surgery great! However, I will say that it takes a long time for chameleon skin to heal and 4-5 months after surgery my gal opened her incision on a branch. We had is restitched but she passed a few months later from an infection in her incision. The best hint for her would be the surgery. At this pint you don't have much to lose as without it she will die. I'd say you have a better chance with the surgery at this point!

 

[Sanababit]

Courious, how much would the operation cost?

Sana