Veiled Female Seems Weak, Won't Move or Eat

[ashmichaelson]

Hey all,
So I went to Mexico this last weekend with my family (Thursday to Monday), and I left my veiled female Pascal with a friend of mine. I took her entire cage over to my friends house, lights and all (one of those ReptiSun linear UVB bulbs and a 60 watt basking bulb and a random cool UVB bulk next to her basking bulb for good measure). She was fine when I took her over there, a week prior (March 28th) I took her to the vet for a checkup and the vet said she looked great.
Pascal apparently didn't eat very much while I was away. I brought some mealworms for her too in case she did get a little hungry, and my friend did feed her a few.
It's been about a week since we've been back from Mexico and Pascal has gotten progressively worse since we've gotten back. Her legs and tail are shaky when she tries to walk, and she basically doesn't move from her basking spot all day. When she absolutely NEEDS to move she'll scoot around on her belly. Upon further investigation, my fiancé and I have found that we hear a little popping sound when she breathes. I've tried to feed her mealworms, super worms, and crickets, and she's only eaten a few of the worms but won't even try to get the crickets. She won't eat anything today. Any suggestions for what's going on and what I should do about it? Anything is appreciated.

Notes: Pascal is about eight months old, I'll attach a picture of how big she was when I got her in August, since I have no idea how old she was then. She hasn't ever laid eggs before but has shown no signs of doing so, the vet told me that I don't have to worry about it, if at all.

 

[ashmichaelson]

Also, her basking spot temperature sits between 82 and 85 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

[kinyonga]

Does she have a proper place in her cage to lay eggs initial she needs to?
Please answer the questions in the how to ask for help thread at the top of the health forum so we can help you better.

 

[ashmichaelson]

Not in her cage, but we do have a trash bin, soil and playsand ready for her as soon as she shows signs of needing to lay. That's the puzzling thing to me, she never showed signs in her coloration or her behavior that she was going to lay. She's a little bigger than she probably needs to be, but the vet didn't say it was bad when we took her two weeks ago and she's kind of always been that way. I almost wonder if she has a respiratory infection or something?

 

[kinyonga]

The idea of having a bin in the cage is so you won't miss the subtle indications that she is gravid. Also...her right wrist looks somewhat swollen. It might just be the picture...not sure.

 

[ashmichaelson]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Veiled chameleon, female. I got her at the end of August, I assume she's about eight months old.
• Handling - Once a week?
• Feeding - Medium sized crickets (6-8 a day but I've been trying to get her to where she's eating that much every other day. I also have some mealworms I'll feed her for treats from time to time. I feed her at 7:45 am before I go to work. Her everyday calcium is Zoo Med Repti Calcium with no D3, and every Monday I alternate dusting with Rep-Cal Calcium with D3 and Rep-Cal Herptivite. I gut load with Flucker's High Calcium Cricket Feed, oranges, strawberries, romaine lettuce, and a little Cricket Crack.
• Supplements - Whoops, I answered that above^^
• Watering - I must her three times a day by hand, with a little mister that looks like a squirt bottle but stays a really fine mist instead. I also have a neat automatic dripper that gets cleaned every week.
• Fecal Description - Her droppings have been normal looking, not too soft but not too hard. Her urates are off white in color.
• History - I got her at Petco?

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Screen cage, 16x16x30. I was looking to upgrade when I moved into a new apartment in a month.
• Lighting - I have a ReptiSun Linear UVB Bulb, and a ZooMed light fixture with a 60 watt bulb in it. Also a UVB coil bulb but I don't think it does much.
• Temperature - Her basking area is 82-85 degrees Fahrenheit, the bottom is 71-72 degrees. At night it's around 69-70 degrees.
• Humidity - humidity stays above 45-50%. I'll spray her cage if it falls below that.
• Plants - no live plants at the moment (I tried and failed)
• Placement - Her cage is placed on a dresser in my room, she gets at least 8 hours a day of peace and quiet because I work. I walk past her a few times a day but that's about it. Her basking spot is at my eye level, and I'm approximately 5'10"
• Location - we live in Southeastern Idaho.

Current Problem - See first message in thread.

 

[Virgil1972]

Im no expert on gravid females but to me I would say that she is gravid. She looks pretty round. If you feel her belly does it feel like there are jelly beans in there?

 

[wavingsnail]

The popping sound could also be a pretty strong indicator of an URI.

How reliable is the person you left her with?

What I mean, is that is there a chance that they're unfamiliar with reptiles to the point that they may have thought she didn't "need" her lights and she went without?

I'm not sure of what kind of temps you guys have at the moment, but maybe she went without heat but got misted. Cold and wet is no bueno for most reptiles.

 

[ashmichaelson]

Update: I took her to the vet yesterday and she said that Pascal's bones felt soft, so she said that it's probably a calcium deficiency. She gave Pascal a little shot in her arm and said that it should kick in pretty quickly, and told us that if Pascal's condition didn't improve we could give her a call and work something else out. She also said that it may be a good idea to dust her feeders with the calcium containing D3 once a week for the time being, instead of once every two weeks.
Does anyone else have experience with a cham having a calcium deficiency? how long did it take for the shot to work? I've noticed that Pascal's grip has gotten a little stronger and she was moving a bit more this morning than she was yesterday, and she lifted her head a few times. She's still shaky but she seems to have a bit more energy. I fed her a few superworms dusted more heavily than normal with the calcium with D3 this morning as well.

wavingsnail, (awesome name, btw I have definitely been thinking about if anything got screwed up in her routine while she was at my friend's house. Even if she did dust the feeders I gave her to feed Pascal, that isn't really going to do anything if her lights aren't on. Because of that, I can see why Pascal might have a calcium deficiency if the lights weren't on (especially the linear UVB bulb) as long or as often as they needed to be. But does calcium deficiency really kick in that quickly? I don't know man... I haven't told anyone but my fiance and my mother about Pascal being sick, but I talked to my friend all day yesterday (I got offered a job and if I took it she'd be one of my coworkers.) I'm afraid to ask her about it because I don't want to hurt her feelings.

Also, I don't know if this could have anything to do with the popping, but my friend has an inside dog. He's very sweet and didn't have a problem with Pascal, and when I dropped her off she didn't appear to have a problem with him being in the room. My friend says that Pascal was in the room alone unless they were taking care of her, and she did let her dog in when she did that. This dog sheds A LOT, but they're pretty good about cleaning it up. do you think the popping could be something to do with some dog hair or some crap in the air or something? ANd excuse my ignorance, but what's a URI? Thanks you so much for your input.

Virgil1972, I've wondered if she's gravid as well. But when I went to the vet she didn't say that she felt eggs or anything, and she picked Pascal up and felt around her entire body, as well as weighed her (she weight only about a two gram difference from what she was in her checkup two weeks ago, 154 grams if I remember right). However I did put a laying bin in her cage because I'm a paranoid mess right now. But right now, I just think Pascal's a fatty. Thanks so much!

 

[wavingsnail]

URI is an upper respiratory infection. Probably one of the most common ailments of reptiles next to MBD , which you can read about here: https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...-like-how-it-happens-and-how-to-fix-it.95071/

 

[ashmichaelson]

@wavingsnail Oh okay, I see. The vet did get a good look at Pascal's mouth and nose and said everything looked good. This was after I mentioned the popping. The only thing she said was wrong with that was that Pascal's jaw felt super soft because of the calcium deficiency. If that continues however, I'll probably go back and bring the pooping noise up as a main issue. Again, thank you so much!

 

[wavingsnail]

Another cause for calcium depletion is egg production.

You might want you push the issue with your vet or seek another opinion just to be safe.

If it were a male in question I wouldn't even suggest it.

 

[Virgil1972]

Egg production takes a toll on chams and there calcium reserves.

 

[ashmichaelson]

Another update: I swear we've had the most rotten luck with Pascal. I got a text from my mother while I was at work, it was a picture of Pascal at the bottom of her cage. Luckily I was going home for my lunch break, so I sped to my house. I don't think she deliberately climbed down to the bottom, because when I tried to pick her up it looked like her back left leg was broken right below her knee. This leads me to believe that she fell and probably landed on her leg.
I called my vet office and today JUST SO FREAKING HAPPENS to be the day that my reptile vet isn't in. Awesome. -_- However, they told us to keep Pascal comfortable and we have an appointment set for and x-ray at 8 tomorrow morning. I'm assuming that will also tell us if she's been producing eggs and/or gravid.
The good news is that she's very alert, she's not doing anything weird like sleeping during the day yet. I had her sitting in a towel on the kitchen counter while we called the vet, and she used her front legs to prop her body up and she looked to be surveying the area. I didn't notice any shakiness anywhere but her broken leg. So things are looking up... Kind of.
Until tomorrow I have her in a little bin with a towel on the bottom, and I've placed her lights across the rims of the bin. I'll try to feed her some more once I get home in a half hour or so.

 

[ashmichaelson]

So this is her arrangement for tonight. The back leg closest to the camera is the one I think is broken. It doesn't look too weird right now but when she moves it looks like her bone is detached underneath her knee. My next question is this: how do I get some water into her and possibly some humidity around her? Any help is appreciated!!

 

[Daypaul]

While she eats you can drop water in her mouth with a dripper while she's chewing if you can't get her to drink normally. I tried this not because mine wouldn't drink but for a day or two her urates where more yellowish I also increased my misting which corrected the problem. My female didn't seem to mind this at all and even seemed to enjoy a splash of water with her crickets. Best of luck to you

 

[JoeVet]

One calcium shot will not solve a calcium deficient animal. The additional D3 may help but I would also ask about adding in twice daily oral calcium glubionate. It takes a long time to get to this condition and will take a long time to correct. Don't expect a quick cure. The weekend at the friends house wouldn't do this. She does look round and probably has eggs or follicles present. She needs an X-ray not only to look for effects of MBD but also to see if she has eggs or pre-ovulatory follicles. If she has follicles, her best bet may be surgery while she is still in relatively good health.

 

[ashmichaelson]

@Daypaul Your advice has had crazy awesome results for me. As soon as she realizes water from a syringe is running down her nose, she opens her mouth and lets me drip water straight in. Thank you!!

I went to the vet this morning, the vet said Pascal's leg looked weird but she didn't think it was broken. X-Rays confirmed that it wasn't broken, and we also found that Pascal is CHUCK FULL of eggs. (Y'all earlier in the thread that said egg production was depleting her calcium levels, you were absolutely right.) I was also told that she was close to being ready to lay, but not quite there yet if Pascal hadn't shown signs of being ready. She said that I could come back next week and get her another calcium shot, or I could take a shot home after she taught me how to inject it into Pascal's arm. I don't really feel comfortable doing that kind of stuff, so I asked if there was any way that I could get calcium tablets or liquid calcium. They said they often referred people to the natural market across the street, and after looking at calcium levels in a brand they carried there she sent me over to the natural market, saying that I needed to give Pascal about a drop of the liquid calcium once a day. She also said to maybe lower all the vines and branches in Pascal's cage closer to the floor and line the bottom with towels until she gets her balance back. She's been eating about five dusted superworms a day, and she drinks from a syringe really well. I'm really hopeful that we can get some energy and strength back into her before she has to lay. I'll attach the picture of the X-Ray when I get home from work tonight. Thanks to everyone who gave me feedback and shed some light on this situation. If anyone has any more advice for me, please let me know, because this is all new to me. Again, thank you so much!

 

[Daypaul]

Glad to hear it helped I still some times do this just to make sure she gets enough. Good vibes light and love to you and yours.

 

[kinyonga]

Please put a container of washed playsand at least 12" deep by 12" by 8" full of moistened washed playsand in her cage so she has a place to dig to show you when she's ready to lay eggs. Make sure she can get to it.
Once she starts digging make sure she doesn't see you watching her or she will abandon the hole. If it happens often enough she can become eggbound. She may dig several holes but should finally pick one and keep digging it until she is happy with it. She should then turn around and lay the eggs. It will likely be in the evening. She should then fill in the hole and tamp it down and return to the branches hungry and thirsty. Good luck.