Vitamin A dosage for eyes problem -It's last option to help my boy

[bluemooon]

I fight with eyes problems more then 1 month. One eye have something under eyelid, vet can't help.
The other eye did not sheed 6 weeks ago and from then it is terrible. I tried everything, warm showers, saline solution flushed in the eye, gentamicin drops and ointment, now I am trying tobramycin ointment. The skin soften a bit and I can remove a bit of old skin with a q-tips, but it is still terrible.
No vets to help here.
Please advice me how to dosage vitamin A and not to make it worst or harm him. I am desperate and really fighting for this boy. He is very active, eat ok, but mist sometimes food, I beleive because he can't see well.
My post when problem started: https://www.chameleonforums.com/eyes-problem-after-sheeding-57218/
The pictures of the eye now

 

[Hoj]

i had eye problem with my guy and vit a was the anwser. i got the reg vit a capsols from the drug store and put one tiny drop on a single feeder for my guy once or twice a month. and by tiny drop i mean TINY i cut open the capsol and dip a toothpick into the liquid and just dab it on the back of a feeder
just a fyi i have also heard of tounge issues being a vit a def, problem as well so you may be on the right track
just be very carefull too much will kill your cham
what type, sex and age is your cham?
i see now about 5 month old male panther, ya 1 tiny drop on one feeder JMO!

 

[bluemooon]

I attend to give him Cod Liver Oil. But I am not sure how offten.It's 2.500 IU vitamin A and 270 IU vitamin D and some omega3 , EPA and DHA.

From his second to third month I was giving him Reptivit with D3 too much maybe, every or every second day. How to know if I overdose him then. I am very confused with vitamin supplementation.
What is right thing to do??

 

[Hoj]

most member use rep-cal herpitive once or twice a month. from the level im seeing in the cod liver oil i would think a drop one one cricket once a week would be a good place to start but this is just a opinion you have to be very carefull

 

[carol5208]

Just for the future, try Kale in your gutload if you have not already. It is super high in Vit A and beta carotene. Just and indirect and natural way for your chameleon to get Vit A.

 

[pssh]

I thought fruits and veggies only had proformed vit A? I've never read about kale having preformed vit A? Also, there is debate about whether or not chameleons can convert proformed vit A into usable vit A.


There is a balance between calcium, vit D, and vit A that needs to be kept in check. Any one having too much (or too little) in that balance can really mess it up. There is more room for error with calcium but much less so with vit D and vit A.

 

[Cainschams]

Here is what Jim from Chamco says.

"I have posted about Vitamin A a few places long-buried here in CF. There is no doubt that captive panthers are very susceptable to Vitamin A deficiencies. It is also pretty easily administered without risking harm to the chameleon, so long as the chameleon only gets a smear at a time, that being less than 1/10th of a drop on foor, or directly in teh mouth, at a concentration of 5000-15000 iu's per capsule (each capsule holds about 3 drops). About 5 doses, one per day, will take care of a deficiency in a larger cham."

 

[carol5208]

I thought fruits and veggies only had proformed vit A? I've never read about kale having preformed vit A? Also, there is debate about whether or not chameleons can convert proformed vit A into usable vit A.


There is a balance between calcium, vit D, and vit A that needs to be kept in check. Any one having too much (or too little) in that balance can really mess it up. There is more room for error with calcium but much less so with vit D and vit A.

you bring up a good point, but does anyone really know for sure? I am just curious is there specific research that proves this? I am not arguing with you but is it just vitamin A then they cannot convert? What about all the other vitamins that are contained in our gutloads? Are there any other vitamins that are said to not be converted or just the Vit A? Does anyone know for fact?

 

[Kent67]

Here is what Jim from Chamco says.

"I have posted about Vitamin A a few places long-buried here in CF. There is no doubt that captive panthers are very susceptable to Vitamin A deficiencies. It is also pretty easily administered without risking harm to the chameleon, so long as the chameleon only gets a smear at a time, that being less than 1/10th of a drop on foor, or directly in teh mouth, at a concentration of 5000-15000 iu's per capsule (each capsule holds about 3 drops). About 5 doses, one per day, will take care of a deficiency in a larger cham."

Just wanted to say that I have used Jim's advice here a couple of times, as well as just giving the same amounts 2-3 days apart, always with great results. I've been using the GNC 10,000 Iu capsules.

 

[bluemooon]

Here is what Jim from Chamco says.

"I have posted about Vitamin A a few places long-buried here in CF. There is no doubt that captive panthers are very susceptable to Vitamin A deficiencies. It is also pretty easily administered without risking harm to the chameleon, so long as the chameleon only gets a smear at a time, that being less than 1/10th of a drop on foor, or directly in teh mouth, at a concentration of 5000-15000 iu's per capsule (each capsule holds about 3 drops). About 5 doses, one per day, will take care of a deficiency in a larger cham."

My panther will be 5 months old at May 15th. I believe I can do the same with Cob Liver Oil since there is 2.500 IU per capsule.
Hope it will help with his eyes issue.I am removing gently piece by piece of multi layered old skin from his eyelid, but the young skin under is very thiny and flat without any texture. He is really brave and recover fast from my hendling. It is terrible there is no vet here to help me with this.

 

[carol5208]

My panther will be 5 months old at May 15th. I believe I can do the same with Cob Liver Oil since there is 2.500 IU per capsule.
Hope it will help with his eyes issue.I am removing gently piece by piece of multi layered old skin from his eyelid, but the young skin under is very thiny and flat without any texture. He is really brave and recover fast from my hendling. It is terrible there is no vet here to help me with this.

where are you located? Maybe we can help you find a vet.

 

[bluemooon]

where are you located? Maybe we can help you find a vet.

Unfortunately no, thank you. Eastern Europe, Serbia.Reptiles are still very exotic here. I found only one vet who wanted to see him, but I realised that I know more then she. You and lot of googling are all I have.
Well, I will fight, he is strong and beautiful, I will find the way to help him. All that should be done I did already: replaced existing Sylvania UV tube with Reptisun 5.o for any case, bought Zoomed ReptiFogger, humidity is good, temperature also,Crickets an superworms are gutloaded with carrot and apples mostly, I got Flucker's cricket diet, this is the last I can think of,Vitamin A. I am afraid I could harm him, but I will be careful.

 

[kinyonga]

Vitamin A and vitamin D3 are somewhat antagonistic to each other. Excess vitamin A may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD....so be careful.

 

[pssh]

Carol, I mean that there is doubt about whether or not they can convert prOformed vitamin A. That would be like beta carotene. This form of vit A does not build up in the system and, if they can, it would be converted into usable vit A as needed. PrEformed vit A is immediately usable but can build up in the system and cause problems.

 

[carol5208]

Carol, I mean that there is doubt about whether or not they can convert prOformed vitamin A. That would be like beta carotene. This form of vit A does not build up in the system and, if they can, it would be converted into usable vit A as needed. PrEformed vit A is immediately usable but can build up in the system and cause problems.

I got what you are saying! Thanks!

 

[ataraxia]

i dont think we are having a vitA issue. from your pics from this thread and your other thread. im going to say first if he still has the swelling it maybe an obstruction or infection. second the skin issue on the turret. pics looks like you have some sort of fungus. it could be medicine but if not im going with this or you have a bacterial skin infection. lastly it could be something like psoriasis just super dry skin. could be from your water you use. and a combination of all the things your are putting on it.

if you have already been loading him up with vitA you can cause some damage to the skin and it will look like burns. it will show up anywhere on the cham. as kinyonga has said to it will mess with d3 also.

without being able to see this cham in real life and to see your husbandry and way of care i dont know where to start..

first are these things your putting on your chameleon vet prescribed and is it by a vet that knows chameleons specifically?

second im going to say you are going to need a scraping of the skin first to see what you are dealing with. you can put everything under the sun you are able to put on it and it maybe soemthing that needs injected. your just going to continue to be frustrated. if you want to fix this.....see a good cham vet! you clearly will not be able to play vet on this one.

 

[carol5208]

i dont think we are having a vitA issue. from your pics from this thread and your other thread. im going to say first if he still has the swelling it maybe an obstruction or infection. second the skin issue on the turret. pics looks like you have some sort of fungus. it could be medicine but if not im going with this or you have a bacterial skin infection. lastly it could be something like psoriasis just super dry skin. could be from your water you use. and a combination of all the things your are putting on it.

if you have already been loading him up with vitA you can cause some damage to the skin and it will look like burns. it will show up anywhere on the cham. as kinyonga has said to it will mess with d3 also.

without being able to see this cham in real life and to see your husbandry and way of care i dont know where to start..

first are these things your putting on your chameleon vet prescribed and is it by a vet that knows chameleons specifically?

second im going to say you are going to need a scraping of the skin first to see what you are dealing with. you can put everything under the sun you are able to put on it and it maybe soemthing that needs injected. your just going to continue to be frustrated. if you want to fix this.....see a good cham vet! you clearly will not be able to play vet on this one.

he said he lives in Serbia and there are none!

 

[pssh]

I would try to have the nearest vet contact a chameleon knowledgable vet by phone so that they can at least try to help.

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy,

Here's a reprint from one of my old posts about vitamin A.


The subject of supplementation certainly has a lot of controversy surrounding it. Vitamin A has had its ups and downs all by itself too. I was reading my latest library addition; "Reptile Medicine and Surgery", 2nd Edition, edited by Douglas R. Mader, MS, DVM, DABVP. It just started shipping a few weeks ago (12-2005?). It's an extensive update of the original 1996 version. It has increased from around 500 pages to over 1200 pages and over 900 images. Chapters are written by Mader and 72 contributing authors, mostly Vets.

I was especially interested in the conclusions about vitamin A and chameleons in chapter 18 (written by Susan Donoghue). I'm not sure just how new that data is but the conclusion that most chameleons are deficient in a source of preformed vitamin A and not just beta-carotene got me wondering. This deficiency is supposed to be causing real problems, especially noted in Veileds. That got me to thinking about my chameleons (1 Panther and 2 Veileds) as well as another Veiled that I was taking care of for some friends who went out of town for 10 days. Their female Veiled began having troubles staying upright on its branches and vines a month or two ago. She was looked at by an exotic vet who prescribed liquid Ca and more UVB (sunshine). The diagnosis seemed reasonable (she had produced 3 successful clutches) but the treatment didn't change anything for the first few weeks+. While she was in my care, Mader's book arrived. I read about the Vit A issue and decided to give her a couple of Ca/D3/Vit A dustings. I had some ReptoCal product that someone had given me but that I'd never used before. In its many ingredients, it listed Vit. A at 219,900 IU/kg. I dusted with it for 2-3 feedings and she actually began showing improvement after about a week or so. Her keepers returned and after a few more days they said that she was now climbing some and that her stability seems to continue to improve. It could be that the liquid Ca/UVB finally kicked-in or the Vit A did something useful or both.

I knew that there was some controversy about preformed Vit. A verses beta-carotene. I, along with many other chameleon keepers, use the Rep-Cal Herptivite multivitamin product that only has beta-carotene as a potential vitamin A source and no preformed vitamin A. Mader's book talks about how lizards like chameleons don't process beta-carotene like herbivores do thus leading to potential chameleon's troubles. I'm in the process of re-thinking my supplementation. I'm thinking about either a replacement for the Rep-Cal Herptivite product or, more likely, adding some source of preformed vitamin A to the dusting schedule (without overdosing). Mine usually get Ca/D3 every other week and Ca no/D3 on any superworms (poor Cah) when not using Ca/D3. They get Herptivite once a month. This was based on suggestions from my vet, Dr. Greek, who has worked on 500-1000 chameleons. My chameleons get 4-8 hours of sunshine a week (usually only on weekends)when the weather permits (not lately), along with 12 hrs of Reptisun 5.0 every day.

My biggest fear forms around my (unfounded?) concern that preformed vitamin A is easy to overdose. It is one of those vitamins that is stored in the liver etc. and it can take months to use up what is stored. Too much can even contribute to a kind of nutritional MBD among other problems including death.

The book recommends a treatment (hypovitaminosis A illness symptoms present) dosage of:
Vitamin A (liquid?) @ 2000 IU per 30 grams body weight once a week for 2 weeks.

Using powder: Dusts containing 86 IU retinyl ester /g DM (dry matter), followed by 60 IU /g DM.

Then as a maintenance level dietary dose:
Dusts providing up to 60 IU/g DM or 5-9 IU/g cricket DM. (I didn't find where it mentions how often to dust at that dosage...)

 

[sandrachameleon]

Just for the future, try Kale in your gutload if you have not already. It is super high in Vit A and beta carotene. Just and indirect and natural way for your chameleon to get Vit A.

No correct. Vegetables do not contain preformed vitamin A. Only carotenes that some animals and insect then convert into vitamin A.

Dosing with preformed vitamin A must be done with great care. It is a fine line between potentially helpful and potentially damaging / fatal.

If you do not KNOW that your animal is deficient, be VERY cautious. Your animal may have an eye infection, rather than a deficiency. Your local vet may not be knowledgable about lizards, but should be able to tell if an eye is infected. And by consulting with more knowledgable vets elsewhere, your local vet should be able to run basic diagostic tests. The eye is open- often the symptom people point to for A deficiency is closed eyes. Missing food could be related to a muscular problem, even a lack of sufficient calcium.

Full disclosure: I've kept healthy long lived chameleons without dosing with preformed vitamin A. So I rarely recommend using it, and if one does I feel you should be using a very minute amount. Be mindful also of the gutload ingredients you are using, and how much D3 you are providing.