We are at a loss! Help A.S.A.P.

[JonnyB22]

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Veiled, Female, about 11 Months old we have had her for 7
Handling - When cleaning her cage.
Feeding - Around 20-25 medium crickets, Once a day, Gut loading with collard greens
Supplements - Dusting crickets with Rep-Cal Herptivite Once a week. Dusting Crickets with Rep-Cal Phosphorus free Calcium With Vit. D3 once a month
Watering - I use the Repti-Fogger for drinking purposes, I also mist for 20-30 seconds twice daily.
Fecal Description - Fairly hard brown with white/yellow urate, Tested for parasites.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Repti-Breeze, all screen cage, 36”x36”x48”
Lighting - Repti-Glo 5.0 UVB 18” Bulb, Zoo-Med 50W basking light, 12 hours on 12 hours off.
Temperature - 85 F at basking spot 75 F at bottom of cage. With a Infrared Temp Gun
Humidity - 50%-70% , Cold air humidifier, also a Repti-Fogger. Digital Hygrometer
Plants - I’m using fake plants.
Placement - In a extra storage room in our apartment. No fans, air vents, no high traffic. About 6 feet up.
Location - Colorado in the dry desert.

Current Problem - Ok, here it goes for the past week we have been worried our little female veiled has been ready to lay eggs, she hasn't ate but she is hydrated. After a week of waiting and her becoming very weak, we take her to one of the two chameleon vets in our town. They did X-rays and she decided that in fact she was egg bound. She also said that she was low on calcium due to her not eating and using all the calcium she had to grow her eggs. She proceeded to give her two shots to help with the uteran contractions and one for a calcium boost. Then she told us to take her home and see if she lays eggs overnight and call in the morning. Well nothing happened overnight so we called today and that vet wasn't in today so we talked to the other vet and he basically said that she had MBD since she is just "pancaked" out on the table. He looked at the X-rays and said he didn't see any eggs. He recommended we give her 2cc's of banana flavored ensure 3 times a day and force feed her a few crickets a day, and also give her a warm bath twice a day, and to make her lay in the bottom of the cage with a heat lamp so she is about 95 degrees. This is my question. What are we supposed to do? I know its not right to seek out medical attention on here, but we are stuck between two doctors who we can't believe either of. We have spent a lot of money trying to figure out what to do and can't make the 6 hour drive to the other closest chameleon vet.

 

[azgnoinc]

For starters, I'm sorry that you are having issues with your girl, that really sucks. Secondly- I would march into that Vet's office, tell them both to pull their heads out, and demand a refund as it is obvious that one of them is full of crap - either the Xrays show eggs or they do not - to get differing opinions from 2 different vets over something that should be incredibly obvious to both is ridiculous - especially when they are both employed at the same place.
I would also like you to post what clinic/office this is, you don't have to post the individual Dr.'s names - but it would be helpful for others to AVOID having to go through this same thing.
How is your girl doing currently - drinking, eating? Is she in a tree and if so did she climb there on her own - this will help with knowing what kind of strength she has at this point. Something I didn't hear mentioned by you or the vets is a possible impaction due to eating one of the fake leaves on your fake tree - Veiled's are noted for eating a lot of vegetation - so that could be a possible issue too. Again, I'm sorry I can't be of more help and am rather surprised that some of the more experienced Veiled keepers & Vet's on here haven't chimed in to help. Hopefully she makes it through all this and please keep us posted.

 

[azgnoinc]

Here is a link to ARAV (Association for Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians) in Colorado: http://www.arav.org/find-a-vet/#Colorado

 

[laurie]

When you talk about supplements you say what you use, but you do not ever discuss using plain calcium. Your cham needs plain calcium more often that both of the other supplements together. That lack could cause MBD.

Given the advice from each of the vets is so different, it is really hard to know what to do. Hopefully one of the vets here will offer some ideas. If not you could send them a pm. One of them lives in CO.

If would be very helpful if you could post several pictures, and those taken a different times time you have had her.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Any chance you have a picture of the X-ray you could post?

 

[kinyonga]

Since she has MBD you will need to correct the imbalance alance and also make sure you have the husbandry right so it won't come back.

If she is having egglaying issues you need to deal with that before she is too weak to deal with it. It's kind of a catch 22 situation because the bone issues make her week in a way too.

Appropriate temperatures, a source of UVB light, well fed/gutloaded insects and proper supplements can all play a part in the bone health.

Hope you get her sorted out.

 

[ridgebax1]

I too would go to the vet office and ask to see her xrays and ask them to explain to you what they see on that xray that indicates MBD or being egg bound. You don't have to be a radiologist to see eggs on an xray which is why I would demand to see it for my self. I am sure you could do an internet search for reptile xrays showing eggs. I am not sure what the radiographic indications are for MBD. I know for people with osteoporosis the density of the bone in the picture can indicate a problem but not sure about chams. I don't know about forcing her to lay at the bottom of a cage. I think that would stress her out. When I had to keep my first cham in a hospital cage I used a small aquarium and put soft towels on the bottom and then secured a couple of branches in it and put some artificial vines around the edges and the top so he would feel like he was still in a tree. Hope your girl gets better.

 

[JonnyB22]

I will post some pictures when I get home from work tonight. That link to the vets in Colorado show only ones in the Denver area which is a very very long drive for us. What type of plain calcium would you guys recommend and what type of schedule should I use. I am also going to do some research about egg binding and go down and see these "vets" and discuss some things with them, I've spent about $450 at this place in two days and still don't have a straight answer.

 

[ridgebax1]

Here is a link to an xray of a cham with eggs
http://thereptilereport.com/gravid-chameleon-x-rays-2/
I use Rep-Cal plain calcium (green label) they have it on Amazon for under $5.00. Good luck with the vet and keep us posted

 

[pigglett79]

I will post some pictures when I get home from work tonight. That link to the vets in Colorado show only ones in the Denver area which is a very very long drive for us. What type of plain calcium would you guys recommend and what type of schedule should I use. I am also going to do some research about egg binding and go down and see these "vets" and discuss some things with them, I've spent about $450 at this place in two days and still don't have a straight answer.

Here is a caresheet for you to read. https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/caresheets/veiled/

You should be giving plain phosphorus and D3 free calcium at most feedings. If you ahve only been giving calcium once a month and herptivite once a week it is very likely that she had MBD. Please do post picutres of her and if you can of the x ray.

 

[fluxlizard]

I would trust the first vet over the second, but neither sounds very experienced. Second vet advice is just bad.

I agree- go into vets offices and ask to see x-rays and ask for explaination. Then do your best.

Just seeing eggs isn't enough to determine egg binding though. Any mature female should have eggs at some state of development inside her most of her adult life I would think.

Keep that in mind when thinking things over...

But if you are only giving calcium 1x per month- certainly a likely problem.
And if your UVB light is old and the lizard has low d3 levels- straight calcium won't fix MBD or lack of muscular ability for laying eggs either.

See if you can get copies of your xrays to put up since ferret has kindly offered to take a look...

 

[JonnyB22]

Here is some pictures of the poor little thing I am working on pictures of the x-rays

 

[fluxlizard]

MBD for sure.
Maybe eggs too- don't know- she's fat enough she could be bound. She doesn't look like she's in any kind of shape to lay even if she is though.
She's got plenty of fat reserves on her head and back- I wouldn't worry about her starving for quite a while yet.
Second vet's opinion making a little more sense to me now that we can see her. She will need calcium and d3 and if she is going to lay- energy. The way she is sitting makes me guess she probably struggles when using her muscles to move about. Digging a nest and laying may be beyond her ability. Can she crawl well enough or does she have a hard time?

I still don't like 3x per day force feedings and forced quite high temp. Too often and too warm maybe. Then again she's pretty far down the road at this point and maybe drastic measures are called for short term.

But that's about all I've got to contribute on this one.

Hopefully someone more knowledgable will be along soon.

 

[JonnyB22]

Here are the x-rays of our little girl

 

[browncofan]

Fractures

I am not a vet, but I see a couple of what looks like fractures on her front right and back left legs. I know it is far away but I would definately find an expert in Chameleons. She needs treatment immediately, I am sure she is in pain.

 

[JonnyB22]

The first vet that we went to called me and sort of explained the disagreement between her and the second vet. She told me in the x-rays you can sort of see outlines of eggs and the reason she thinks that is because she doesn't have much calcium in her body and she is using it all to form the eggs. Which to me does make sense. She also said that the other doctor thought she was only 8 months old and not 11 months old. She told me that we need to take care of the MBD first since she can't even stand, let alone lay eggs. I am still not really comfortable with this answer, but we are giving her 2 cc's of ensure 3 times daily

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Eeks. Your little girl is in bad shape. I've highlighted what I'll be referring to in the pictures.

I've outlined the eggs with purple. I've circled the fractures in yellow. All 4 of her legs are broken. They are difficult to see clearly because her bone density is very poor, which is why her bones are breaking. She had metabolic bone disease and then she pulled all the remaining calcium out of her bones to make eggs, which left barely anything behind. You should be able to count all the bones in her toes, her spine, and see the outline of her skull clearly. The x-ray below hers is of a normal bone density. See how everything that's bone is brighter? Minerals like calcium make them more white.

Normal skeletal bone density:

Here is more information on Metabolic Bone Disease: https://www.chameleonforums.com/wha...ase-mbd-looks-like-how-happens-how-fix-95071/

Here you can see more eggs (purple). The stomach is yellow so just no one wonders what that is. Now the bluish area in most of her abdomen is a bit concerning to me because I can't tell what that is. It could be a lot of eggs with really poor shell density because she didn't have enough calcium to form them well. Or, if the eggs were so soft that some have ruptured or been in there too long and caused infection then that can make everything look fuzzy like that. It's called egg yolk peritonitis, and it's very serious. I hope that is not the case, because if it is then unfortunately she most likely will not survive it.

This is an x-ray of another chameleon with MBD and eggs. Hers is not quite as advanced since you can still see bones better. But you can count all of the eggs (in early development). I cannot count all of the eggs on your girl's x-ray, which is worrisome.

She needs calcium, and a lot of it, stat! She needs to be on calcium glubionate syrup, one drop twice daily, for two months. She will never be able to lay her eggs without good calcium levels in her body because the muscles used to push cannot function without enough calcium. The eggs having thin egg shells will also make it hard because the muscles won't be able to push them out very well. Like trying to force a partially filled water balloon into a small container - it's too flimsy and doesn't cooperate. Plus if she cannot dig a hole she most likely will not even try to lay eggs, and with those fractures of her legs digging will be hard for her.

Your little girl needs time to rebuild her bones and rebuild her calcium levels, but time is definitely against her. If she does not lay her eggs on time, or if they've already caused peritonitis, she will die from that. She is in a very tricky and life-threatening situation. If it were me I'd be pushing for surgery to remove the eggs, spay her and determine whether or not she has peritonitis (infection from her eggs). By spaying her you won't ever have to deal with this again. She is not in the best health, so surgery is risky. But everything is risky for her at this point. I'm very sorry to say it, but be prepared for the worst...

 

[JonnyB22]

Thank you so much for your input ferret, we are going to try our hardest to nurse this girl back to health. We feel like the worst parent in the world. How could we have done this to her .

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Unfortunately that is how it happens - you don't know how wrong things have gone until they're really bad. You are doing right by her trying to help her now. Time will tell if she is going to be a fighter and be able to pull through it with your help.

 

[Ninkylou]

I wish you the best in nursing your girl back to health. Pets can be heartbreaking because they can't communicate what's wrong.

We are so lucky to have people like Ferretinmyshoes on this forum. I can only imagine the number of chams that have been saved, or the number of illnesses prevented by their posts (consults LOL). I have learned so much already.