Werners Chameleons

[scandals]

Hi, I am a new member and looking for any information about the Werners. I have a pair that are housed in a large screen enclosure with live plants. Yesterday they bred and I need to know length of gestation, whether to remove her and when,type of enclosure to set up for babies(if I'm lucky) etc. etc.
Any help would be appreciated-in the past I have raised Anoles but I was told that these give live birth and I want to do my best for them.
Thanks,
Gail

 

[SuperRad]

Here is some info about werner from adcham

http://www.adcham.com/html/taxonomy/species/chwerneri.html

and i just wrote an article on breeding live birth chams

http://www.keepingchameleons.com/breeding.html

Hope this info helps

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

can they be house together?

 

[scandals]

I think so. They have always been together-5 months now. They don't bother about each other much during daylight but at night sleep very close to each other. One morning I found them sleeping on opposing branches but the ends of their tails were linked together.(like holding hands!) They roam around during the day,basking,eating etc. but always go to the lower branches to sleep at night.

 

[Justin Carl]

What size is your cage?
How old are they?

 

[scandals]

The cage is 2 x 2 by 48" high. Ages weren't known when I bought them but male was immature and has grown the most of the two.

 

[SuperRad]

I believe only pygmy's can be housed together. Keeping them together might cause unnecessary stress on your chams. It may not be visual but it is affecting them as most chams are solitary animals. Make sure there is alot of foliage so they may have their privacy when needed. But i do think your cage size is much to small for a pair of adults.

 

[Trace]

'Tis about the right time of year for the seasonal breeders like the Chameleo trioceros werneri to be mating. Congrats! I'm still waiting for mine to have a go at this year.

To expand upon a few thoughts already brought up on this thread, werneri should not be housed together. They are not what are considered to be a communal living chameleon and you should consider separating them as soon as you can. Yes, it looks like they get along, but what you are seeing is not healthy chameleon behaviour(s). In reality, males and females do not co-habitat in the wild so they should be kept as so in captivity. I've found the females to be fairly sedentary during the day so a huge cage isn't needed but the males do like to roam about so larger is preferred.

You don't mention your humidity at all, but I kept my werneri at 70-80% during the day with 100% overnights. High, high humidity is crucial to all species of chameleons but particularly the montanes.

Temperatures should not get above 80-85F daily and the werneri can certainly tolerate temps into the low 60's at night.

Gestation on the werneri varies from 5-10 months but my girls have always given birth at about the 6 month mark. For the few days leading up to birthing, they are very active and usually go off food. The females give birth in the morning after they've warmed up and it takes only a few hours. DO NOT watch them during the birthing process. It's really cool to see, but most females are very shy about the process and you could end up doing more harm than good by standing there. Contrary to what has been said in this thread, females DO NOT eat their babies! It's ok the leave them in the cage with mom for a while. Obviously you should remove the babies for rearing separately when mom is finished the birthing process.

Now for the bad news. Live bearing babies of any species are notoriously hard to keep/rear in captivity. They seem to do really well for about 8 weeks then all of the sudden drop dead for no reason. This is why you don't see many CB ovoviviparous species sadly. Obviously some do make it, but the losses greatly outnumber them. To get back to the communal/non-communal comment I made earlier, I've had more success with my baby werneri if I raised them individually from the get go. I work with several "communal" type live bearing chameleon species as well and those babies/litters can be raised together. Not the werneri. Baby cages need not be fancy! A line of kritter keepers under a UV bulb is fine. Humidity, again, must be 80% or more consistently for internal organ growth. Misting must also be done very frequently over the course of a day. The babies are tiny and any appropriate sized feeder bugs are accepted by the babies. I use FF's and pinhead or 1/8" crickets.

I'm sure I've missed a pile of tips so if you have any other questions, please ask.
Good luck with mom!
Cheers,
t

And some pics: (because that is what I do!)

Seconds old baby werneri

First shed:

Juvenile female werneri

 

[FaunaBgirl]

Love the pictures, thanks for sharing. They are some of my favorite chams.

 

[scandals]

'Tis about the right time of year for the seasonal breeders like the Chameleo trioceros werneri to be mating. Congrats! I'm still waiting for mine to have a go at this year.

To expand upon a few thoughts already brought up on this thread, werneri should not be housed together. They are not what are considered to be a communal living chameleon and you should consider separating them as soon as you can. Yes, it looks like they get along, but what you are seeing is not healthy chameleon behaviour(s). In reality, males and females do not co-habitat in the wild so they should be kept as so in captivity. I've found the females to be fairly sedentary during the day so a huge cage isn't needed but the males do like to roam about so larger is preferred.

You don't mention your humidity at all, but I kept my werneri at 70-80% during the day with 100% overnights. High, high humidity is crucial to all species of chameleons but particularly the montanes.

Temperatures should not get above 80-85F daily and the werneri can certainly tolerate temps into the low 60's at night.

Gestation on the werneri varies from 5-10 months but my girls have always given birth at about the 6 month mark. For the few days leading up to birthing, they are very active and usually go off food. The females give birth in the morning after they've warmed up and it takes only a few hours. DO NOT watch them during the birthing process. It's really cool to see, but most females are very shy about the process and you could end up doing more harm than good by standing there. Contrary to what has been said in this thread, females DO NOT eat their babies! It's ok the leave them in the cage with mom for a while. Obviously you should remove the babies for rearing separately when mom is finished the birthing process.

Now for the bad news. Live bearing babies of any species are notoriously hard to keep/rear in captivity. They seem to do really well for about 8 weeks then all of the sudden drop dead for no reason. This is why you don't see many CB ovoviviparous species sadly. Obviously some do make it, but the losses greatly outnumber them. To get back to the communal/non-communal comment I made earlier, I've had more success with my baby werneri if I raised them individually from the get go. I work with several "communal" type live bearing chameleon species as well and those babies/litters can be raised together. Not the werneri. Baby cages need not be fancy! A line of kritter keepers under a UV bulb is fine. Humidity, again, must be 80% or more consistently for internal organ growth. Misting must also be done very frequently over the course of a day. The babies are tiny and any appropriate sized feeder bugs are accepted by the babies. I use FF's and pinhead or 1/8" crickets.

I'm sure I've missed a pile of tips so if you have any other questions, please ask.
Good luck with mom!
Cheers,
t

And some pics: (because that is what I do!)

Seconds old baby werneri

First shed:

Juvenile female werneri

Thank You
What size of cage would be o.k. for the female-the only other cage I have available at the present is 18 x 18 x 24H-would that do for her until I could get something larger?
What supplementation do you give?
Any info on these guys is more than welcome.
The pictures are wonderful! do you have any of mature males you could send?
Thanks again,
Gail

 

[Trace]

Hello Gail

What size of cage would be o.k. for the female-the only other cage I have available at the present is 18 x 18 x 24H-would that do for her until I could get something larger?

That would be fine. I kept my girls in cages about the same size. I found the females bask in the morning, move off to a cooler part of the cage for the afternoon and hide deep in their plants for sleeping. And that's about it. Except for breeding season when I'd find my one female plastered against the side of her cage staring at the male in the cage beside her! There was really mistaking what was in her mind.

What supplementation do you give?

I use Susan Donoghue/Walkabout Farms "Montane Shade" supplement at every feeding. I'm very pleased with the health of my collection by using those particular vitamins and I now refuse to use the other name brand dusts. I do not have problems with edema, hypervitaminosis, gout and all the other problems associated with supplementing captive chameleons. I also use reverse osmosis water in my misting system so my animals are not drinking all the nasty additives of tap water. Do they really need fluoride? Do they drink that in the wild? Nope.

Any info on these guys is more than welcome.

Specifically what would you like to know?

The pictures are wonderful! do you have any of mature males you could send?

Never ask me for pics. Ever. You've been warned. I have millions.

"Mr Werner" hamming it up for the camera:

"Mrs. Werner" Non-receptive. No means no. No means lunch.

Cheers
t

 

[Will Hayward]

Trace, second last photo above is stunning. You are really putting that camera to good use. You've had some awesome models too.

 

[Cainschams]

http://www.nofluoride.com/
http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/780/37/

Hey guys I noticed Trace said do chameleons really need flouride? Another good question is do humans really need it? Here are 2 links one about flouride and the other about microwaved water. I right now use my well water but am getting R/O sys as soon as possible. Flouride is not good for anything it is POISON from what the site says and I dont think many other if any other countries use this besides U.S.

If you guys think I should start a thread to let other people know who might not see this one let me know or go ahead and post them up. Your pics always make me smile Trace

 

[Will Hayward]

Cain, tell that to my teeth. Fluride is plentiful in my local water, and I attribute this to never having a cavity despite my general lack of dental care or respect for my teeth. When I returned home from a year living in brazil where I paid more attention to dental care, I had developped the start of a cavity. While not entirely healthy for humans, it sure goes a long way to taking good care of my teeth.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

4 out of 5 Chameleon Keepers agree ...

 

[scandals]

Wow those are great pictures!
Have never heard of that supplement. where can you get it?
I use distilled water,slightly warm for misting. That is all I use for myself and my dogs(Scandals comes from my kennel name with the CKC).
How many babies do they usually have? How many have you been able to raise past the 8 wks.? How much food should an adult be consuming in a day?
I am really upset that I have been stressing these guys out-had a Veiled eons ago and knew they had to be keep alone but was assured when I bought these that a male and 1 or 2 females could be together. I probably would have only got the male if I'd known.
It's the care I find interesting. At least if she does have babies it will be when it's hot here as opposed to the -40's we've been having. When I had Anoles they would hatch in November, which I found odd but probably due to where they came from rather than where they were.
Thanks for all your help,
Gail

 

[Cainschams]

Sorry Will I did say it wasnt good for anything. It is good for teeth and though I am getting a R/O sys. it is not for me. I use listerene which has fluoride so I know it is an oxymoron for me to post those but its not really me I am worried about Have a great day or night.

 

[Will Hayward]

Have never heard of that supplement. where can you get it?

All the information needed was provided. But here is a link for you;

http://www.rocksolidherpetoculture....art&page=shop.browse&category_id=12&Itemid=94

 

[Trace]

Trace, second last photo above is stunning. You are really putting that camera to good use. You've had some awesome models too.

Your pics always make me smile Trace

Thanks for the compliments guys! I swear my chameleons don't recognize me without a camera in front of my face. Oh, and double thanks to Will for introducing me to another money-pit of a hobby!

Wow those are great pictures!
Have never heard of that supplement. where can you get it?

It's sold here: http://www.rocksolidherpetoculture.com/ but I'm hearing rumours that they don't exist anymore??!?! Why their website is still up is beyond me. Before you send any money to them, perhaps send an email to Scott to see if they are still in business. It's a shame because I really don't want to go back to Miner-all and Reptivite et.al. Blech.
I found some old threads on the subject:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/rock-solid-gutload-food-6789/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/best-vitamin-guttload-4725/

I use distilled water,slightly warm for misting. That is all I use for myself and my dogs

That'll work!

How many babies do they usually have?

Anywhere from 5 - 25ish. Mine were 14 each time.

How much food should an adult be consuming in a day?

I feed my guys every other day I guess. I don't really have a hard and set schedule. They eat more in the summer than winter so I'll feed them daily then. I found that 6 bugs per feeding kept my guys and gals healthy. Not fat not slim. I've found the werneri aren't gluttons like some if the bigger species so if they aren't hungry they won't eat. Use your discretion with your pair.

I am really upset that I have been stressing these guys out-had a Veiled eons ago and knew they had to be keep alone but was assured when I bought these that a male and 1 or 2 females could be together. I probably would have only got the male if I'd known.

Don't kick yourself, we've all made mistakes. It doesn't sound like they've been too stressed or they are unhealthy either. I think you will see some other interesting behaviours now that they are separate. Besides, gravid females are not the happiest of critters, so getting her away from the male does her (and him!) a world of good!

Where did you get your pair? Any idea on age? I know you said the male was the younger of the two. Any pictures?
And sort of off topic; do you have a site or pics of your Schnauzers? I saw the odd scandals pedigree on the net, but not too many pics to go with them.

At least if she does have babies it will be when it's hot here as opposed to the -40's we've been having

Gotta love our Canadian winters eh! We must be completely crazy.

Cheers,
t

 

[scandals]

I bought them at local reptile shop. My daughter was looking for a Beardie so she dragged me in. Of course I spotted the only reptile that could temp me-they had quite a few-all different kinds-it struck me they shouldn't be in aquariums-flapjacks and werners were in groups. It took me about a month of dropping in,thinking about whether I had the time etc.etc. I purchased the pair(told me they were wild caught-which didn't make me too happy-but by then I was in save mode). Both have grown and shed numerous times since then.
I have tons of pictures of my Schnauzers but doubt this forum is the place to post them-can send privately if you email me.