luckykarma
New Member
I've been using this additive from Cricketfood.com (http://www.cricketfood.com/product_info.php?products_id=203&osCsid=61b36a7979b2ba717472e80bb92818c3 )and wondered what people's experience with it are.
What are people's experiences with "Da good Stuff"
- Thread starter luckykarma
- Start date
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
I become wary when I see bee pollen in something - it's often inserted into something because people believe it to be a miracle food. It has many many many benificial things in it - vitamins of all sorts, etc... but in such miniscule, tiny tiny concentrations, it is esentially useless. And expensive.
as for the product in question, I have no idea.
as for the product in question, I have no idea.
luckykarma
New Member
Each vet that did fecals remarked "What's all this pollen doing in there!"
I think I'll lay off it for a while and see how the animals react. Especially the one who won't eat. I'm waiting for blood panel results to see if anything else is affecting his appetite.
I think I'll lay off it for a while and see how the animals react. Especially the one who won't eat. I'm waiting for blood panel results to see if anything else is affecting his appetite.
wendysjungle
New Member
I have used the gutload products from cricketfood.com for years for my various herps, and also used their "salad topper" when I had iguanas. I have never ordered "da good stuff" because all the ingredients in it are already present in their premium gutload anyway, so I saw no reason to purchase a separate product. My herps all thrive on their gutload products, and I have found their gutload prices to be as good or better than comparable gutloads. I always thought "da good stuff" looked a bit pricey, and like I said, why order it when separately when the same ingredients are present in the gutload?
luckykarma
New Member
I use their gutload also. I didn't pay attention to the replication...
wendysjungle
New Member
I don't think anybody was saying that bee pollen is bad, just that, like anything else, using too little is useless. It seems nobody is 100% sure what exactly the benefits are of using the correct amounts, same people claim great results, and others say there isn't enough evidence. As for any negative effects with using too much, I haven't found any information so far overdoses are a problem, and a lot of articles say the opposite, unless you happen to have the odd cham that is allergic:
http://www.reptileallsorts.com/snakeorg-cs/chameleons.html
http://www.martinsreptiles.co.uk/ukchams/beepollen.htm
http://www.chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=95
Just search "bee pollen chameleons" and you'll get 20,000 or so hits.
http://www.reptileallsorts.com/snakeorg-cs/chameleons.html
http://www.martinsreptiles.co.uk/ukchams/beepollen.htm
http://www.chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=95
Just search "bee pollen chameleons" and you'll get 20,000 or so hits.
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
I avoid bee pollen becaus eof my "guilt by association" rule.
If the product has dubious benifits, and it's sold on a website that has other products that I know to be complete crap, I avoid it. Bee pollen has been pushed by health-food people for a long time, and it has been pushed so hard, that it's now "accepted" as something miraculous: "nature's most perfect food".
I've seen "nature's most perfect food" plastered all over the place describing bee pollen - but nobody describes WHY. I'm not saying it's bad or anything, but the stuff is just pollen, it isn't a wonder food. Simply a little carbohydrates and traces off vitamins and such - not bad stuff, but nothing that's going to do anything special.
I don't trust anything that makes outrageous claims... or claims that are simply untrue.
Bee pollen is one of them - try to find a source showing the nurtitional content of bee pollen. A real source. It's almost impossible to find.
If the product has dubious benifits, and it's sold on a website that has other products that I know to be complete crap, I avoid it. Bee pollen has been pushed by health-food people for a long time, and it has been pushed so hard, that it's now "accepted" as something miraculous: "nature's most perfect food".
I've seen "nature's most perfect food" plastered all over the place describing bee pollen - but nobody describes WHY. I'm not saying it's bad or anything, but the stuff is just pollen, it isn't a wonder food. Simply a little carbohydrates and traces off vitamins and such - not bad stuff, but nothing that's going to do anything special.
I don't trust anything that makes outrageous claims... or claims that are simply untrue.
Bee pollen is one of them - try to find a source showing the nurtitional content of bee pollen. A real source. It's almost impossible to find.
Tygerr
Avid Member
That sounds like a challenge to me
Here's one I think you'll like: Nutritional Value of Bee Collected Pollens.pdf
Now I realise that one doesn't refer specifically to bee pollen and it's nutritional benefits to humans or chams (it is more focussed on how much nutritional value the pollen provides to bees), but it has some interesting scientific data.
Also it raises an issue that I haven't seen 'bee-pollen marketers' cotton onto yet: the nutritional content of the pollen varies depending on what flowers the pollen was collected from. So not all bee pollen is the same... (Take a look at the table of poor, average and good quality pollens: I can see branding battles waged over that one).
Some other interesting bits of info in the report:
- bee pollen does not only contain carbohydrates, but also a fair amount of crude protein, as well as fat (lipids)
- "Minerals are very stable in pollen and will not vary with length of storage" (p. 174)
Enjoy...
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
I can't open pdf's at home - I need to let spybot and my antivirus have a run at it... I'm suspicious.
Interesting study - especially the variability. I would like to see a study showing bee pollen nutritional values for people. Eating a dusting of pollen on your food for 30% protein is like dusting on some powdered fish flakes, only more expensive.
Again, nothign really saying it's bad - but many people are lead to believe it's some ultra-concentrated, super-good-for-you, magic, "perfect food".
In my opinion, you'r better off just spending the money on a variety of bulk gutloads and mixing them.
Interesting study - especially the variability. I would like to see a study showing bee pollen nutritional values for people. Eating a dusting of pollen on your food for 30% protein is like dusting on some powdered fish flakes, only more expensive.
Again, nothign really saying it's bad - but many people are lead to believe it's some ultra-concentrated, super-good-for-you, magic, "perfect food".
In my opinion, you'r better off just spending the money on a variety of bulk gutloads and mixing them.
Tygerr
Avid Member
I hear you Eric. From the sites I've found that purport to have scientific data on the nutrional value of bee pollen for humans (most of them touting Bee Pollen as miracle food), the nutrients they mention can be obtained just as effectively from far cheaper ingredients. For example, it's supposed to be a good source of B-complex vitamins (how good compared to brewer's yeast, leafy green veggies, and grains?).
Protein can also be obtained from cheaper sources in greater concentration, as can all of the other minerals and vitamins found in bee pollen.
As you said, I think the main feature they try to sell regarding pollen is that it is a 'complete' food, i.e. that it has a little bit of everything that is needed. But you couldn't live on bee pollen alone anyway, so that defeats the whole purpose of a 'complete' food. I agree with you when you say that you're far better off just mixing it all up. Isn't that what a balanced diet is all about?
The only caveat to our discussion is that bee pollen is listed as an ingredient in many gutloads, including my personal favourite, the James/Wells/Lopez gutload. I once corresponded with Susan James about the recipe, and she said that she often increases the level of bee pollen and algae over what is listed in the recipe. I never questioned her as to why she did this, but she must believe it has some nutritional value to her chams.
Then Dr. Sue Donaghue commented in her E-Zine article that she suspects that "of all animals, it would be chameleons that benefit from supplemental bee pollen. I expect that wild chameleons ingest pollen and nectar when taking prey."
This does all seem like déjà vu to me: don't we always get into a debate about bee pollen on this forum
I remember the last time we discussed it we eventually started commenting on the possible allergic reaction to bee pollen in Melleri chams...
All I can say is, I've used it with no ill effect, but then I couldn't ascertain whether there was any positive effect from it either. Perhaps Eric is right when he says you are just better off spending your money on a wider variety of beneficial ingredients, rather than forking out for bee pollen. But there's probably nothing wrong with adding it to a gutload if you can afford it. It's simply not the 'bee all and end all'...
Protein can also be obtained from cheaper sources in greater concentration, as can all of the other minerals and vitamins found in bee pollen.
As you said, I think the main feature they try to sell regarding pollen is that it is a 'complete' food, i.e. that it has a little bit of everything that is needed. But you couldn't live on bee pollen alone anyway, so that defeats the whole purpose of a 'complete' food. I agree with you when you say that you're far better off just mixing it all up. Isn't that what a balanced diet is all about?
The only caveat to our discussion is that bee pollen is listed as an ingredient in many gutloads, including my personal favourite, the James/Wells/Lopez gutload. I once corresponded with Susan James about the recipe, and she said that she often increases the level of bee pollen and algae over what is listed in the recipe. I never questioned her as to why she did this, but she must believe it has some nutritional value to her chams.
Then Dr. Sue Donaghue commented in her E-Zine article that she suspects that "of all animals, it would be chameleons that benefit from supplemental bee pollen. I expect that wild chameleons ingest pollen and nectar when taking prey."
This does all seem like déjà vu to me: don't we always get into a debate about bee pollen on this forum
I remember the last time we discussed it we eventually started commenting on the possible allergic reaction to bee pollen in Melleri chams...
All I can say is, I've used it with no ill effect, but then I couldn't ascertain whether there was any positive effect from it either. Perhaps Eric is right when he says you are just better off spending your money on a wider variety of beneficial ingredients, rather than forking out for bee pollen. But there's probably nothing wrong with adding it to a gutload if you can afford it. It's simply not the 'bee all and end all'...
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
yes, I agree - terrible pun by the way.
I am always skeptical of "miracle foods", healing additives, etc. often used in health food places. It seems many people add them to take advantage of the fact that many people believe the lofty claims, no matter if it's really worth it or not. No real way to know.
Like I said - guilt by association - I am extra skeptical simply because some people make crazy claims. Often, it could be a perfectly ok product, but when it's claimed to be more than it is, it loses credibility to me. Just me and my cynicism of the health food industry showing through.
I have seen people nearly ruin their lives over claims made by health-food/nurtition gurus. I has made me very weary of nutritional claims that are not based on science nor logic.
I am always skeptical of "miracle foods", healing additives, etc. often used in health food places. It seems many people add them to take advantage of the fact that many people believe the lofty claims, no matter if it's really worth it or not. No real way to know.
Like I said - guilt by association - I am extra skeptical simply because some people make crazy claims. Often, it could be a perfectly ok product, but when it's claimed to be more than it is, it loses credibility to me. Just me and my cynicism of the health food industry showing through.
I have seen people nearly ruin their lives over claims made by health-food/nurtition gurus. I has made me very weary of nutritional claims that are not based on science nor logic.
Tygerr
Avid Member
True, true. It was a toss-up between that and "Pollen is not the supplement it is cracked up to bee."
Either way, I realise it's going to take a lot more work to have them rolling in the aisles...
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