What Breed has Personality?

[dudeking]

Hey there,

So there's a big reptile expo coming to Toronto in a couple weeks, and I plan to get myself a Panther chameleon as for localities I'm really not sure, I love them all! But I can be swayed further from Panther as well if you give me a good story.

I'm gonna be honest, I've seen some really cool Veilds, but I'm just not a big fan.

What are Fischer's like?
Johnston's?
Other fancy horned chameleons?

What's the lowdown?

In your experience, who's got the most personality? How can I choose one that will be curious and tame and not confrontational and territorial?

How do I avoid WC?

I've heard that Melleri can be very curious and interesting, following the owner around the house and watching as they do things? (although I doubt there will be any at the show, I've never seen one let alone one that is CB as I've heard that they are very difficult to breed)

I figure I'll ask how long the family line has been CB for, and that they have been handling the babies often. Any other tips for looking at chameleons? Avoiding mouth rot and parasites and bad husbandry all-together?

Also, how cheap is too cheap to sell chams in order to afford proper care for a clutch of babies?? As I want to avoid these dealers too.

I've had herps and cham experience and have the whole shabangabang ready, 9'x6'x3' so don't worry about giving me lighting tips and drainage worries, that's all taken care of...

Pre-emptive THANKS!

 

[burnedrose]

Out of all the chams I've owned over the years, my Jackson's had the best personality, in my opinion. However, my veileds were pretty cute as well.

My male Jackson's would climb on my glasses and sit there for hours, on the band next to my head. It was pretty cool but got annoying after ten minutes. He would also just cruise with me throughout the house. However, i got a female Jackson and she was pretty aggressive and gaped and hissed a lot.

My female veiled was adorable and had a lot of personality, too. She LOVED my sister's boyfriend, for some odd reason and whenever they came over and glanced in her cage she would scramble over to peer right back at him. I think it was his red hair...lol.

I just got a new male veiled today and he is freakin' awesome so far. I can already tell that he is going to be really active and his colors are going to be beautiful.

 

[eisentrauti]

Chameleons are even for reptiles relative unintelligent. They dont have any "personality".

 

[KatiLemons]

I personally dont agree with Eisentrauti with the persoanlity thing. They may be unintelligent but they have a whole world of personality.
I have only had Panthers and My Levi actually goes to the bottom of his cage to poop and he won't hand feed from anyone else but me. I have experimented this numerous times with his favorite treat (superworms) and he just wont eat from anyone. But if I take that same worm and offer it to him he grabs it instantly! I have read several threads on Chameleons and trust. They have to grow trust for people and once they do that the bond is awesome. He knows when I'm getting his food ready and he sometimes comes to see me at the front of the cage if I walk by! Its awesome.

 

[okiroo]

Chameleons are even for reptiles relative unintelligent. They dont have any "personality".

that seems kind of harsh to say. there are many smart reptiles btw. many can learn to do things such as have a bathroom spot. i personally dont know the actual science behind chams and their brain. but i do know that when i hold up water bottle she reacts with smacking "lips" i know that its sight triggering her seansory but its still a degree of "learning" so their not stupid. they so have diffrent reactions based on breed(in general) or male/female/random personaily probally slightly based on breeding geans and nuture. it all depends. so their diffrent thus have personailys.


exuse my exsesive spelling and grammical problems ect. i suck at that.

 

[jah]

Ya I've only had 2 chams, 1 veiled and 1 panther(currently) my veiled i had would puff up and hide whenever I came into the room, especially when I would mist or feed. Could barely get her out to do cleanings. My panther now is the most chillin reptile i've ever owned, eats from my hand(only mine), comes up when I mist and drinks from the nozzle, reaches out to me whenever I open his enclosure, and has never puffed up for me. I raised him from a baby(1 month) and slowly started introducing hand feeding and handling and im assuming started trusting me and now loves to be hanging out with my and my little bro! Each cham has its own personality I believe. I dont have crazy experience with different chams but panthers seem to be loving too!

 

[dudeking]

Thanks for your replies,

Burnedrose, your jackson's sound very cute, I always thought they looked like fun, my love for dinosaurs as a little kid has always had me thinking about getting my own little "treeceratops"

Eisentraut, clearly you didn't read my post and do not care to understand what I mean by "personality", If you didn't notice differences in each individual chameleon you owned, I'm fairly confident you wouldn't have so many chameleons.

As for intelligence, if you rate a fish on it's ability to climb a tree it certainly looks stupid. (...unless you look at the mangrove killfish from central america...)

Kati! Wow its amazing how they can recognize different people eh? my panther would turn all happy colours and even run out of his bush to climb me when I had been camping/hiking for too long, always puffed at one of my roomates right when he saw him!

 

[mbondy]

In terms of Fischers, I believe you mean a Kinyongia Multituberculata otherwise known at the West Usambara Two Horned Chameleon, the name was changed so instead of Fischers it's most commonly known at a K. Multi for short.

Anyways, I have a male who is AWESOME!! Full of personality and has a huge character, he LOVES to come out of his cage and enjoys free ranging. He's most definitely not afraid of me and anyone can handle him. Of course not all K. Multis are like this but if they have an appetite than you will most likely have a curious cham. I would recommend buying a CB but they are not easy to come by. GOOD LUCK!!

Here's my handsome guy.

 

[Pilotman800]

Its so cool to hear that some chameleons actually enjoy being handled, and grow a bond with one owner. I ordered an Ambilobe panther from Jim at chameleon company, and hope it will be just like that!

 

[thephotoprincess]

We have 11 chameleons of several different species. All have distinct personalities. I don't know why anyone would keep chameleons and think they don't have personalities ...

All of our chameleons handfeed and most are happy to come out and interact. My female veiled is the sweetest and most personable. She loves to come hang out. Our males are also pretty chill but I know a lot of veileds aren't like that.

I recommend you check out Kinyongia multituberculata, commonly called fisher's. They are very curious and active. I think are very under-rated for such cute and sweet little chameleons.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

If your looking for a cham as a pet and companion. Then go with a cb no matter what species you choose. Its going to be harder to gain the trust of a wc than a cb baby you have raised. That will pretty much limit your choices down to whats avail cb in your area.

And I know what Benny/Eisentrauti was gettin at. Chameleons dont have a brain large enough to have a personality. You will find that some will form bonds with their owner/keeper but a person has a personality not a reptile.

 

[jannb]

Each one of my chameleons has a different personality but all are very friendly. I interact with my chams on a daily basis and I can see their personality and how smart and friendly they are. My veiled Luie is one of the friendliest, followed close by Sid (panther), Jr (panther), Bertha (panther) and Padre my parsonii. Even Luie and Camille's tiny babies at 6 weeks old each had their own little personality. You can watch some of my videos and see their personality for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/user/jbesok?feature=mhsn

 

[Carlton]

What are Fischer's like?
Johnston's?
Other fancy horned chameleons?
In your experience, who's got the most personality? How can I choose one that will be curious and tame and not confrontational and territorial?

How do I avoid WC?

I've heard that Melleri can be very curious and interesting, following the owner around the house and watching as they do things? (although I doubt there will be any at the show, I've never seen one let alone one that is CB as I've heard that they are very difficult to breed)

I figure I'll ask how long the family line has been CB for, and that they have been handling the babies often. Any other tips for looking at chameleons? Avoiding mouth rot and parasites and bad husbandry all-together?
I've had herps and cham experience and have the whole shabangabang ready, 9'x6'x3' so don't worry about giving me lighting tips and drainage worries, that's all taken care of...

Pre-emptive THANKS!

While I don't have any idea about what will be available in Toronto, there are some generalities worth mentioning.

As has been said many many times before, each cham can be individual even within a species or a bloodline. I've seen that so often and would never believe a seller who claims all his chams are bred to be friendly. If you wish, the fact that they are individual seems to speak to a bit more intelligence. Just no way to predict their tendency to be social (I prefer describing this as being more or less tolerant of people). I've handled a lot of chams over the years, most of them rescues, so have seen a pretty wide spectrum. I didn't force any of them to like lots of handling, just took what they gave. FWIW, here are some things I think hold:

The fischer's I've met tended to be more active and shyer than jackson's but it may be they are more "reactive" or less tolerant, not that they are actually afraid. Busy chams who like space and use it.

Jackson's don't tend to be aggressive but it doesn't mean they don't get stressed when handled a lot. They just show it differently and you can be lulled in to assuming they "like" it.

You want to avoid wc? Don't buy a less common species. Pretty much guarranteed that a panther, a veiled, and some jackson's or quadricornis will be cbb. Other species like fischeri, deremensis, melleri, sailfin, quads are still imported most often.

Deremensis tend to be quite sedentary, secretive, and many are surly (don't get me wrong...I like them a lot, but they are just not outgoing creatures).

Some melleri can be very nice but some are pretty nasty. A big powerful mean melleri is no treat. In a very large free range they tend to be calmer. Even cbbs according to a couple of people who have raised them. A nice melleri is wonderful but you'd really have to hand pick one out of a group. My first wc melleri was just plain sweet. Out of all the chams I've kept she was my favorite; healthy and gentle from day one. Others really varied a lot ranging from spiteful to nice.

Problem is, at a show you are seeing chams that may not be showing their true personality. They may be sick, dealing with shipping stress, all the activity is overwhelming for them. Gentle ones may be much shyer, bold ones may be aggressive. Sick ones just can't be themselves. While you can handle or watch the show chams looking for obvious physical problems I just don't think you'll get a clear sense of individual personalities in that situation. And, unless the breeder is there selling their OWN stock, you can't really know for sure what's been imported. Look the vendor's stock over. If you see little scars, scabs, nose rubs, bits of shed, dirt and scratches on the palms of their feet, reactive flashy color displays, broken claws, and larger chams they are most likely wc imports.

IMHO, I don't think deliberate handling of babies more or less changes their basic personality. They may end up being more used to contact but if they don't want it they continue to not want it. It can even pre-dispose them to be more reactive (oh no, not again!).

 

[Stanly]

Chameleons are even for reptiles relative unintelligent. They dont have any "personality".

I do not believe a high level of intelligence is required for a person (or animal) to have personality. And as for having a "good" personality, it could be argued that intelligence is a hindrance (after all ignorance can be bliss).

I think chameleons do have personality, some maybe generic (ie species or even individual genetics) but I suspect some is environment (past experiences etc.)

 

[dudeking]

OK,

first of all, I think I understand what you mean to say when you say they don't have "personalities", in that their subjective lives are so different from our own that our projection of emotions and feelings that are strictly mammalian (happy, angry, jealous, whathaveyou), are exactly that, projections.

BUT

Oxford defines personality as:
"the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individuals distinctive character"

And that has little to do with emotions or feelings. I am simply talking about BEHAVIOUR, and behaviour definitely varies from individual chameleon to chameleon based on almost everyone's post here.

And it seems like most of you know what I'm saying. So rant aside! (sorry, I got really into that...)

Thanks Carlton! Your experiences will teach me well, I'm endeavoring instead to meet up with the vendors going to the expo a few days early and perhaps see what they've got now, as clearly the stress of being in a GIGANTIC EXPO will not show their "true colours" (hahaha!!!)

It seems individuals vary more-so than breeds, and thinking the opposite clearly isn't so helpful (like racism).

Thanks for the input everyone!! And I don't mean to argue, I just like a good discussion.

 

[Lizardlover]

OK,

first of all, I think I understand what you mean to say when you say they don't have "personalities", in that their subjective lives are so different from our own that our projection of emotions and feelings that are strictly mammalian (happy, angry, jealous, whathaveyou), are exactly that, projections.

BUT

Oxford defines personality as:
"the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individuals distinctive character"

And that has little to do with emotions or feelings. I am simply talking about BEHAVIOUR, and behaviour definitely varies from individual chameleon to chameleon based on almost everyone's post here.

And it seems like most of you know what I'm saying. So rant aside! (sorry, I got really into that...)

Thanks Carlton! Your experiences will teach me well, I'm endeavoring instead to meet up with the vendors going to the expo a few days early and perhaps see what they've got now, as clearly the stress of being in a GIGANTIC EXPO will not show their "true colours" (hahaha!!!)

It seems individuals vary more-so than breeds, and thinking the opposite clearly isn't so helpful (like racism).

Thanks for the input everyone!! And I don't mean to argue, I just like a good discussion.

So with what you've said in mind, wouldn't all species have personality? After all, you did just state that personality is behavior, and all chameleons behave in some way or another. Also, what do you mean by "breed", chameleons are not "breeds" they are all individual species, if that's what you were referring to?

 

[Olimpia]

So with what you've said in mind, wouldn't all species have personality? After all, you did just state that personality is behavior, and all chameleons behave in some way or another...

I think that is true. It's been true for all pets that I've ever kept, including geckos, birds, and even some of my fish. Of the 6 chameleons I had, I could describe you how they acted in all types of situations, and no two were the same - whether they were typical angry chameleons or atypical friendly chameleons. It's super interesting, if you ask me. If someone would have asked me before I had reptiles if they had personalities, in the sense Oxford defines it which I think is fair, I don't think I might have said yes! lol I worked with them for years but I never spent enough hours with them to see the differences. But they were mostly snakes too, and they don't do much during daytime working hours.

 

[bigben2057]

jacksons are nice the female i think tend to be a little bit meaner than the males.

 

[burnedrose]

RE: personality.

I just took a random course called Theories of personality at the local college (yes I'm weird and take random courses about random stuff from time to time) and it was very enlightening. The definition used by a lot of psychologists is as follows(and this is coming straight from my textbook "Perspectives on Personality" by Charles S Carver and Michael F Scheir):

"Personality is a dynamic organization of psychophysical systems that create the person's characteristic patterns of behavior, thoughts and feelings."

This definition makes several points:
- Personality isn't just a bunch of bits and pieces; it has organization
- Personality doesn't just lie there; it has a process of some sort
- personality is a force that helps determine how the person relates to the world
- Personality is not displayed in just one way, but in many ways; thoughts, behaviors and feelings.

If we take this definition as true, then we must conclude that chameleons have some sort of personality. A chameleon does not automatically eat food - they usually recognize hunger and will attempt to satiate it. They also identify friend and foe, as seen, especially, in mating. A female will not accept every male that she is placed with, nor will every male accept a female. There is indication of a thought process, no matter how minor, indicating a preference of partner. Is it such a stretch, then, to assume that there is even a preference for a mate based on visual clues? After all, chameleons are very visual creatures, especially during mating, with the colors going crazy and all. Who's to say a female veiled doesn't prefer the more blue veiled over the yellow veiled or vice versa? Chameleons also show personality in the way they interact with humans. Some chameleons will actually process some sort of emotion towards their owners, which can generally be placed into four categories: fear of the owner, indifference towards the owner, seeing the owner as a food source and seeing the owner as a trustworthy person. Now, many owners will report their cham reacting to them in many different ways throughout the chams life, depending on situations, but the baseline will generally fall under one of the four (or more) emotional reactions. This pretty much shows that the chams not only have some sort of emotional reaction to stimulus, but also that they are capable of reacting towards certain objects and people with a certain stimulus that the cham has decided upon, showing now only some sort of minor intelligence, but, according to our definition...PERSONALITY.

ANYWAAAYYY, I am rambling and I can't believe I just psychoanalyized a chameleon's personality. Hope this helps end some sort of debate.

 

[Stanly]

to contribute to the original question I'll add my limited experience. I haven't had chameleons as long as many and so far only have 3, a panther and two jacksons (different subspecies)

I've had the panther longest, when I got him he was pretty bold (hand fed first day, hardly ever hid and only puffed up when startled or at my phone), he's now what you may call "friendly" fairly fearless, pretty active, and if he has his eye on something he can be rather relentless.

My first jacksons (xantholophus subspecies) I've had about 3 months. When I first got him he was very shy, would hid if you even neared his cage. He's gotten a little less shy, rarely hides and will even eat and drink in front of me, however I still haven't managed hand feeding and handling causes obvious stress (so I only do it when necessary).

My newest jacksons (jacksonii subspecies) I just got a couple of weeks ago, he seem a bit more bold than my other jackson (already hand feeding) yet he's still adjusting so he does alot of hiding (which is normal for him according to the previous owner).

there does seem to be some tendency for certain species to behave in certain ways, for instance I've heard jacksons are typically shy and rarely aggressive and this seems to hold true for my two. However I've heard of individuals that break one or both of those stereotypes.

RE: personality.

I just took a random course called Theories of personality at the local college (yes I'm weird and take random courses about random stuff from time to time) and it was very enlightening. The definition used by a lot of psychologists is as follows(and this is coming straight from my textbook "Perspectives on Personality" by Charles S Carver and Michael F Scheir):

"Personality is a dynamic organization of psychophysical systems that create the person's characteristic patterns of behavior, thoughts and feelings."

This definition makes several points:
- Personality isn't just a bunch of bits and pieces; it has organization
- Personality doesn't just lie there; it has a process of some sort
- personality is a force that helps determine how the person relates to the world
- Personality is not displayed in just one way, but in many ways; thoughts, behaviors and feelings.

If we take this definition as true, then we must conclude that chameleons have some sort of personality. A chameleon does not automatically eat food - they usually recognize hunger and will attempt to satiate it. They also identify friend and foe, as seen, especially, in mating. A female will not accept every male that she is placed with, nor will every male accept a female. There is indication of a thought process, no matter how minor, indicating a preference of partner. Is it such a stretch, then, to assume that there is even a preference for a mate based on visual clues? After all, chameleons are very visual creatures, especially during mating, with the colors going crazy and all. Who's to say a female veiled doesn't prefer the more blue veiled over the yellow veiled or vice versa? Chameleons also show personality in the way they interact with humans. Some chameleons will actually process some sort of emotion towards their owners, which can generally be placed into four categories: fear of the owner, indifference towards the owner, seeing the owner as a food source and seeing the owner as a trustworthy person. Now, many owners will report their cham reacting to them in many different ways throughout the chams life, depending on situations, but the baseline will generally fall under one of the four (or more) emotional reactions. This pretty much shows that the chams not only have some sort of emotional reaction to stimulus, but also that they are capable of reacting towards certain objects and people with a certain stimulus that the cham has decided upon, showing now only some sort of minor intelligence, but, according to our definition...PERSONALITY.

ANYWAAAYYY, I am rambling and I can't believe I just psychoanalyized a chameleon's personality. Hope this helps end some sort of debate.

Very interesting, and I agree for the most part (except I do not believe most choices (if any) are random)