What do hornworms eat?

[nightanole]

So other than the super secret "hornworm chow" what can i grow hornworms with? I here you can "keep them alive" with some carrot slices after the food runs out. I also hear they can live directly off of mulberry leaves just like silk worms. or can i just feed them tomatoes, either ripe or green?

PS: anyone have a quickie on the nutritional differences on silks vs horns?

 

[trickedoutbiker]

Don't feed them tomatoes. If you have done any research on hornworms, you would know that tomatoes are toxic to chameleons and that's why you shouldn't feed a wild hornworm that you found on a tomato plant to a chameleon.

 

[nightanole]

Don't feed them tomatoes. If you have done any research on hornworms, you would know that tomatoes are toxic to chameleons and that's why you shouldn't feed a wild hornworm that you found on a tomato plant to a chameleon.

I was under the impression tomatoes are fine, but tomato leaves are not.

 

[trickedoutbiker]

I was under the impression tomatoes are fine, but tomato leaves are not.

You are partly right on that, IF, the tomato is ripe and NOT green.

RED, FULLY RIPE tomatoes are OKAY, but use at your own discretion. Let me explain....

Tomato plant leaves, stems, and stems of the fruit, as well as the green fruit, are toxic. The whole tomato plant contains solanine, and this is more prevalent in the leaves and stems. Solanine is a toxic glycoalkaloid poison found in species of the nightshade family (Solanaceae), such as the potato (Solanum tuberosum), the tomato (Solanum lycopersicum), and the eggplant. It can occur naturally in any part of the plant, including the leaves AND fruit. Other toxic substances in the plant are glycoalkaloid tomatine and some glycoproteins.

Tomatoes, when green, contain ALL of those toxic components. As they mature, they slowly lose those substances so that when ripe, the amounts left in the red tomato are too small to be considered "toxic". The green, un-ripe tomato though, is HIGHLY toxic.

Even for humans, eating a fully green tomato can cause intestinal problems. The ingestion of the leafy plant itself is also toxic to us - it can cause gastrointestinal, liver, and heart damage, which can lead to death, provided that the intake of the plant is high enough. In Mexico, they actually used to grow tomato plants in gardens as decorative pieces instead of for the fruit, because they were considered a highly toxic plant and not much was known about them back in those days...

"So is a fully ripe tomato okay?" you may ask....

Sure, BUT .... let me just say this.....

Tomato fruit contains beta carotene, which is proformed and not preformed vitamin A, so it won't build up in your chameleon's system. It is also high in calcium and Vitamin K, as well as lots of other good vitamins. It is low in Oxalic Acid. All good things to know....

HOWEVER......... it is HIGHER in Phosphorus than in Calcium, and therefore is not your best choice for gutloading.

So, if it is a RED tomato and FULLY RIPE...... then yes it would be OKAY to use.... but if you want my two cents, I would use it very sparingly, or not at all, because the phosphorous level is higher than the calcium level. The whole reason we dust our insects is because their phosphorous levels are higher than their calcium levels. So, feeding an insect a tomato which is higher in phosphorous than it is in calcium, is kind of furthering the gap of poor calcium-to-phosphorous ratio.

So as I stated before, do so at your own discretion. I just told you what I know.


I also might add that, I had some hornworms about a month or so ago, courtesy of a forum member.... They were growing fast and I actually ran out of food for them before I could feed them all off. First time for me. What I did was, I put 7 into a bucket of dirt so they can pupate.... and I put a piece of collard greens into the cup with the other few, and they munched on that for about 4 days while I slowly fed the rest of them off. Carrots, leafy greens.... they can be a temporary solution, and are much better than a tomato as far as the nutritional value for the cham. I'm not even sure a hornworm would eat the tomato, as I've never seen or heard about one doing that, even in the wild.


As for the nutritional value of silkworms versus hornworms.... sorry I can't help you there. I've seen a few different charts that compare the nutritional values of different feeders, but every chart seems to vary slightly so I can't tell you for sure what is exact. Maybe some other people can throw out some knowledge about that particular matter?

 

[Andee]

I've heard of them living off of mulberry leaves and dandelion leaves, however whether this is true or not I cannot say. I would do an experiment to be sure. I might do that myself. I have a leafing mulberry tree in my backyard that I could test some hornworms on. I would like to know for certain.

 

[cyberlocc]

You are partly right on that, IF, the tomato is ripe and NOT green.

RED, FULLY RIPE tomatoes are OKAY, but use at your own discretion. Let me explain....

Tomato plant leaves, stems, and stems of the fruit, as well as the green fruit, are toxic. The whole tomato plant contains solanine, and this is more prevalent in the leaves and stems. Solanine is a toxic glycoalkaloid poison found in species of the nightshade family (Solanaceae), such as the potato (Solanum tuberosum), the tomato (Solanum lycopersicum), and the eggplant. It can occur naturally in any part of the plant, including the leaves AND fruit. Other toxic substances in the plant are glycoalkaloid tomatine and some glycoproteins.

Tomatoes, when green, contain ALL of those toxic components. As they mature, they slowly lose those substances so that when ripe, the amounts left in the red tomato are too small to be considered "toxic". The green, un-ripe tomato though, is HIGHLY toxic.

Even for humans, eating a fully green tomato can cause intestinal problems. The ingestion of the leafy plant itself is also toxic to us - it can cause gastrointestinal, liver, and heart damage, which can lead to death, provided that the intake of the plant is high enough. In Mexico, they actually used to grow tomato plants in gardens as decorative pieces instead of for the fruit, because they were considered a highly toxic plant and not much was known about them back in those days...

"So is a fully ripe tomato okay?" you may ask....

Sure, BUT .... let me just say this.....

Tomato fruit contains beta carotene, which is proformed and not preformed vitamin A, so it won't build up in your chameleon's system. It is also high in calcium and Vitamin K, as well as lots of other good vitamins. It is low in Oxalic Acid. All good things to know....

HOWEVER......... it is HIGHER in Phosphorus than in Calcium, and therefore is not your best choice for gutloading.

So, if it is a RED tomato and FULLY RIPE...... then yes it would be OKAY to use.... but if you want my two cents, I would use it very sparingly, or not at all, because the phosphorous level is higher than the calcium level. The whole reason we dust our insects is because their phosphorous levels are higher than their calcium levels. So, feeding an insect a tomato which is higher in phosphorous than it is in calcium, is kind of furthering the gap of poor calcium-to-phosphorous ratio.

So as I stated before, do so at your own discretion. I just told you what I know.


I also might add that, I had some hornworms about a month or so ago, courtesy of a forum member.... They were growing fast and I actually ran out of food for them before I could feed them all off. First time for me. What I did was, I put 7 into a bucket of dirt so they can pupate.... and I put a piece of collard greens into the cup with the other few, and they munched on that for about 4 days while I slowly fed the rest of them off. Carrots, leafy greens.... they can be a temporary solution, and are much better than a tomato as far as the nutritional value for the cham. I'm not even sure a hornworm would eat the tomato, as I've never seen or heard about one doing that, even in the wild.


As for the nutritional value of silkworms versus hornworms.... sorry I can't help you there. I've seen a few different charts that compare the nutritional values of different feeders, but every chart seems to vary slightly so I can't tell you for sure what is exact. Maybe some other people can throw out some knowledge about that particular matter?

Hmm I never heard of that before. That is good to know but raises a question to me, as I (apparently wrongly) had a different logic of the toxicity.

Solanine is toxic, however from what I can find not in a way that can cause death. all the plants you mentioned also produce nicotine which can cause heart failure instantaneously in large doses.

So is the Solanine really the issue? or is the nicotine? or is just the combination of both that leave a huge problem.

For my reasoning I would not feed tomatoes at all. While a fully ripe tomato does not contain solamine, it does contain nicotine. Nicotine to a human is okay in small doses, see Cigerates. In large ones even a drop of pure nicotine on your skin will cause death with in minutes.

 

[trickedoutbiker]

So is the Solanine really the issue? or is the nicotine? or is just the combination of both that leave a huge problem.

Yes, that same plant family has nicotine in the plant matter as well. Definitely worth noting.

Now I'm no professional botanist or anything, but I'd say it's more of the solanine - because eating a green tomato can make you super super sick just like eating the actual tomato plant itself can make you super super sick. That would be the solanine doing that to you, not the nicotine - because a fully ripe tomato ALSO contains nicotine, and you can eat one of those and be perfectly fine. HOWEVER...... nicotine is not good at all either, and the combination of the two is probably not a stew you want to sip. Nicotine in larger amounts could definitely prove to be lethal, because as you said, a large amount can kill a person. Solanine in larger amounts won't KILL you super fast, but it will lead to all sorts of organ damage and failure that you would die from THAT.

That's why I'd personally advise against tomatoes in any way. Just so many other good options out there, why bother with a tomato and chance anything, you know?

 

[cyberlocc]

Yes, that same plant family has nicotine in the plant matter as well. Definitely worth noting.

Now I'm no professional botanist or anything, but I'd say it's more of the solanine - because eating a green tomato can make you super super sick just like eating the actual tomato plant itself can make you super super sick. That would be the solanine doing that to you, not the nicotine - because a fully ripe tomato ALSO contains nicotine, and you can eat one of those and be perfectly fine. HOWEVER...... nicotine is not good at all either, and the combination of the two is probably not a stew you want to sip. Nicotine in larger amounts could definitely prove to be lethal, because as you said, a large amount can kill a person. Solanine in larger amounts won't KILL you super fast, but it will lead to all sorts of organ damage and failure that you would die from THAT.

That's why I'd personally advise against tomatoes in any way. Just so many other good options out there, why bother with a tomato and chance anything, you know?

Yep I agree, I didn't know much about the Solanine, Now I am glad I do .

My concern with the nicotine is what is a high dose to a human vs a high dose to animal vary a lot. So while a tomato is fine for us, to a chameleon I am not so sure. Nicotine can be beneficial in small amounts which also complicates things even more lol.

I am with you so many great gutloads just forget about tomatoes .

 

[trickedoutbiker]

I am with you so many great gutloads just forget about tomatoes

I use mustard greens, turnip greens, collard greens, kale, alfalfa, bee pollen, carrots, apples, oranges, strawberries, blueberries, blackberries, celery, grapes, sweet potato, and a few other things for my wet gutloads.


For dry gutloads, I get premium chow blends and use those, along with ground organic non-salted sunflower seeds, alfalfa, and bee pollen.