What does orange urate really mean?

[Alexl]

I've always read over here people saying orange urate means a chameleon is dehydrated. So I just wanted to clear up that myth... it's no sign of dehydration. You can't compare chameleons to humans, whose pee becomes darker when drinking less. Even completely healthy and well hydrated chameleons may have orange urate.

I'll try to explain.

Uric acid is the end product of nucleid acid metabolism (crystals of uric acid = urate). This metabolism takes place inside the liver. Liver releases uric acid into blood, from where it's eliminated via kidneys. Now imagine a chameleon is dehydrated, there's less water in tissue and vessels. There's no reason why the end product of a liver metabolism should change colour due to less fluids - it's just going on as usual. To save water during urate production, the chameleon would need to take back water via renal tubules. But the chameleon can't, it's a reptile. They don't have Henle's loops, which reabsorb water in mammals' kidneys. Okay, let's take a look at another chance: The chameleon could reabsorb water inside the cloaca. But if this was the case, the end product would be parched urate. Still no change of colour.

Well, where does the colour come from? There are three options:

• First, it's some kind of natural dyestuff. There are few colourants inside the body, e.g. Biliverdin. This can appear in urate sometimes - if necessary for the chameleon due to several reasons. It would give a hint on liver functions. Or in case of other colourants inside urate, it would give a hint to the organ producing or abolishing it.

• Second option: Chameleons eat lots of different feeders and supplements. Those may content pigments which are absorbed by gut and then excreted by the kidneys. This way a coloured urate would give a hint to what your chameleon has eaten.

• Third possibility: The longer the urate stays inside the cloaca, the bigger the crystals become. Bigger crystals break the light different to smaller ones - they seem to be yellowish or orange.

Well, I hope you've understood all of my explanations... And don't always think of dehydration regarding coloured urate anymore .

 

[Lathelia]

Interesting theory, I'm curious what other experienced members think about it. I've only heard urate can be orange if feeders were gutloaded with lots of carrot.

 

[Trillian]

Very interesting look at the theory! There must be some indirect connection though, orange urate is usually seen when a chameleon is showing other signs of dehydration, such as sunken turrets. I have yet to see orange urates in a healthy, well-hydrated chameleon, even with varied diets. It's good to question the 'dogma' though, and look at the systems behind it.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I respectfully disagree that orange urates are not a symptom of dehydration. Right now I don't see any evidence provided other than speculation to disprove this theory.

1. Biliverdin is green, not orange. The orange pigment produced by liver metabolism is bilirubin. Biliverdin is converted to bilirubin by the liver in mammals, which is why you see icterus or jaundice, or even yellow in your bruise as it heals. Reptiles and birds do not convert biliverdin to bilirubin which is why blood tests do not measure it, and they bruise green instead of yellow. Liver problems in reptiles and birds result in green feces/urine because of this. So that theory does not make sense here.
2. Chameleons are not the only reptiles that you see orange urates in. Strict herbivorous and strict carnivorous (in the meat eating sense) can also have orange colored urates. When I feed my iguana all squash or papaya (both orange fruits) I do not see orange coloration of her feces (where i would expect to see coloration if it was just the food) or urates at all. I don't think there are orange meats so that theory doesn't really hold up.
3. Wouldnt that lend credence to the theory of dehydration? The longer the urates remain internal the more water is reabsorbed from them, so in essence, dehydrating the urates. If that much water is being reabsorbed before defecating that means the body needs that water, so there is some degree of dehydration. If anything you've just explained the reasoning for the orange appearance in direct correlation to hydration status.

Clinically I see my chameleons who are very stubborn about drinking have more yellow and orange urates on the weeks when I cannot get them to drink hardly anything, but then on the weeks where they drink well or get hornworms their urates are snow white. This is something that people have been observing in light of hydration status for a very long time and very consistently. You are suggesting that it is simply coincidence all the time. I do not think that is the case.

 

[Hoj]

I know crickets poop orange when you feed em lots of carrots.

 

[lysinlight87]

I respectfully disagree that orange urates are not a symptom of dehydration. Right now I don't see any evidence provided other than speculation to disprove this theory.

1. Biliverdin is green, not orange. The orange pigment produced by liver metabolism is bilirubin. Biliverdin is converted to bilirubin by the liver in mammals, which is why you see icterus or jaundice, or even yellow in your bruise as it heals. Reptiles and birds do not convert biliverdin to bilirubin which is why blood tests do not measure it, and they bruise green instead of yellow. Liver problems in reptiles and birds result in green feces/urine because of this. So that theory does not make sense here.
2. Chameleons are not the only reptiles that you see orange urates in. Strict herbivorous and strict carnivorous (in the meat eating sense) can also have orange colored urates. When I feed my iguana all squash or papaya (both orange fruits) I do not see orange coloration of her feces (where i would expect to see coloration if it was just the food) or urates at all. I don't think there are orange meats so that theory doesn't really hold up.
3. Wouldnt that lend credence to the theory of dehydration? The longer the urates remain internal the more water is reabsorbed from them, so in essence, dehydrating the urates. If that much water is being reabsorbed before defecating that means the body needs that water, so there is some degree of dehydration. If anything you've just explained the reasoning for the orange appearance in direct correlation to hydration status.

Clinically I see my chameleons who are very stubborn about drinking have more yellow and orange urates on the weeks when I cannot get them to drink hardly anything, but then on the weeks where they drink well or get hornworms their urates are snow white. This is something that people have been observing in light of hydration status for a very long time and very consistently. You are suggesting that it is simply coincidence all the time. I do not think that is the case.

Cool, I was waiting for your opinion on this

 

[Elizadolots]

I believe it is true that the longer the urate stays in the animal the darker it becomes, so an animal that has not pooped for a couple of weeks might produce a dark urate without being dehydrated. I've also read here that one of the repashy products can cause spots in the urate that are orange to red. However, the overwhelming experience of this board is that increasing hydration results in lighter/white urates. It's impossible not to conclude that there is a causal relationship.

Add that to what Ferret says and it seems pretty clear that, unless there are other known issues, orange urates should be considered a sign of dehydration.

 

[Miss Lily]

I respectfully disagree that orange urates are not a symptom of dehydration. Right now I don't see any evidence provided other than speculation to disprove this theory.

1. Biliverdin is green, not orange. The orange pigment produced by liver metabolism is bilirubin. Biliverdin is converted to bilirubin by the liver in mammals, which is why you see icterus or jaundice, or even yellow in your bruise as it heals. Reptiles and birds do not convert biliverdin to bilirubin which is why blood tests do not measure it, and they bruise green instead of yellow. Liver problems in reptiles and birds result in green feces/urine because of this. So that theory does not make sense here.
2. Chameleons are not the only reptiles that you see orange urates in. Strict herbivorous and strict carnivorous (in the meat eating sense) can also have orange colored urates. When I feed my iguana all squash or papaya (both orange fruits) I do not see orange coloration of her feces (where i would expect to see coloration if it was just the food) or urates at all. I don't think there are orange meats so that theory doesn't really hold up.
3. Wouldnt that lend credence to the theory of dehydration? The longer the urates remain internal the more water is reabsorbed from them, so in essence, dehydrating the urates. If that much water is being reabsorbed before defecating that means the body needs that water, so there is some degree of dehydration. If anything you've just explained the reasoning for the orange appearance in direct correlation to hydration status.

Clinically I see my chameleons who are very stubborn about drinking have more yellow and orange urates on the weeks when I cannot get them to drink hardly anything, but then on the weeks where they drink well or get hornworms their urates are snow white. This is something that people have been observing in light of hydration status for a very long time and very consistently. You are suggesting that it is simply coincidence all the time. I do not think that is the case.

My dear old Tommy was a prime example of this - he would drink every day at misting time AND use his dripper. Yet his urates usually had some degree of orange/yellow colouring to them. Tommy was a chameleon that would only poop every 10 - 14 days and the very last part of the urate to leave his body was always nice and white, whereas the part that had been in his body the longest was alway more orange. On the very rare occasion that he would poop after only a couple of days interval, the urates were always lovely and white.

Just to add to this - my sugar gliders always pooped orange poop whenever they ate papaya, and it smelled gross too!

 

[Alexl]

When I feed my iguana all squash or papaya (both orange fruits) I do not see orange coloration of her feces (where i would expect to see coloration if it was just the food) or urates at all.

An orange coloured food doesn't mean there has to be orange colourant inside urate. A coloured food does not automatically mean there are colourants absorbed by gut and excreted by kidneys, too. That's just a possibility. In my opinion, the third one is what usually occurs. Biliverdin was just one (yes, it's green of course, I think I probably didn't tell it exactly the way I meant cause I'm not native speaker ) example for a body own colourant, which could cause any colour change in urate.

The longer the urates remain internal the more water is reabsorbed from them, so in essence, dehydrating the urates.

I think there's a misunderstanding. The crystals do not give off water the longer they stay. An uric acid crystal is the last form inside the body, there's no way for the reptile to get water out of it anymore. The longer the crystals stay, the longer they have time to e.g. accumulate to bigger crystals or other conformations.

An orange urate can be completely liquid, too - a dehydrated chameleon would not spend water to its urate. I'll take a picture the next time I see a well hydrated chameleon with coloured urate, or I'll search my pictures to show some examples.

Mmh, hope I could make it clearer...

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

An orange coloured food doesn't mean there has to be orange colourant inside urate. A coloured food does not automatically mean there are colourants absorbed by gut and excreted by kidneys, too. That's just a possibility. In my opinion, the third one is what usually occurs. Biliverdin was just one (yes, it's green of course, I think I probably didn't tell it exactly the way I meant cause I'm not native speaker ) example for a body own colourant, which could cause any colour change in urate.

A possibility, yes. But I am saying it is an unlikely one. Unless you know of a particular compound that is excreted as orange through the kidneys that is common in reptile foods whether they're herbivores, insectivores or carnivores. If you want to completely disprove a popular, consistent theory then you need to have something more concrete to offer as evidence.

I think there's a misunderstanding. The crystals do not give off water the longer they stay. An uric acid crystal is the last form inside the body, there's no way for the reptile to get water out of it anymore. The longer the crystals stay, the longer they have time to e.g. accumulate to bigger crystals or other conformations.

Reptiles are extremely efficient at water conservation, which is why they have urates. In mammals the primary excretion is ammonia, which is further converted to the final product of urea, which requires large amounts of water to excrete. Since reptiles can't spare the amount of water needed to balance out the urea because they lack the loop of henle (the part of the kidney that reabsorbs and conserves water) they further convert urea to uric acid. This is what the white portion, the urates, are composed of. When feces are formed they combine with the urates, since there is no bladder in most reptile species, to sit in the rectum, or more specifically the copradeum (see here for more info on the anatomy of the cloaca in reptiles and birds) until defecation occurs. Since the kidneys cannot reabsorb water needed by the body the copradeum can absorb water out of the bowel movement before it occurs. So the crystals are not giving off water, but the water is pulled out of the surrounding urates and feces when the animal is dehydrated, leaving the crystals behind. The amount of water reabsorbed increases when the animal is dehydrated to try to conserve as much as possible for the body, which leaves the crystals more exposed.

An orange urate can be completely liquid, too - a dehydrated chameleon would not spend water to its urate. I'll take a picture the next time I see a well hydrated chameleon with coloured urate, or I'll search my pictures to show some examples.

This depends on the degree of dehydration. Not everything is as clearly understood in reptiles yet as well as it is in mammals. There are still many mysteries. Dehydration won't remove all of the water or else the bowel movement would be too desiccated to be expelled. It's all relative. Dehydrated feces may look watery, but that could still be dehydrated if the amount of water in them should have been more.

Alexl - you have great insight and offer great information to posts very consistently. I respect your knowledge and ability to help others. I want you to know I am not simply trying to argue with you. I think you presented an interesting theory and I enjoy the scientific debate behind it! These are very interesting discussions imo.

 

[Trillian]

Damnit, I'm chucking my popcorn. I was hoping for a fight. Cursed reasonable discussion and exchange of ideas.

 

[UrbanChameleon]

I completely agree with Elizadots. I recently had this experience.

One of my Chameleons hadn't produced a fecal for a few days, which is extremely uncommon for him. When he did finally poop, the urate AND poop had an orange tint to it. My first thought was that the Butterworms I'd recently introduced to his diet gave it the orange coloration. But after thinking about it, I realized that was not the case at all.

First of all, I want to state that I watched him drink everyday. He is not shy when it comes to drinking, so I knew dehydration wasn't the issue. It was also puzzling, because it wasn't just the urate that was orange. From day one, I'd thought that the butterworms were constipating him. I then stopped them all together and he was right back to his daily pooping. All of his fecals are now normal.

My theory is that the butterworms constipated him, the fecals stayed in his system longer, which in turn caused the orange coloration. My gut reaction was to assume A) Dehydration B) orange feeder + fecal = orange fecal. I did not feel that either of these theories were viable in my case. I truly believe that the orange tint came from the poop being in his body too long.

All I can speak from is experience, and I have no comments on the OP's other theories. This one just happened to hit home with me.

 

[Dr O]

at this time, there are several situations that are known to cause red/orange/yellow urates in reptiles:

-dehydration
-renal failure
-uric acid bladder stones
-breakdown of certain foodstuffs; particularly those high in some specific amino acids
-certain parasites
-breeding cycle changes, particularly in females
-(more rare) other metabolic/endocrine diseases

Ferret has already given an excellent overview of the typical cycle of a uricotelic animal such as reptiles and birds. uric acid crystals in human urine are often red/yellow and are considered to be that way from natural colorants picked up from the urogenital tract itself, in addition to the natural yellow color refraction of uric acid crystals. in uricotelic animals the natural color of the matrix that makes up the urate (it's not pure uric acid crystals; there's other substances in there which give it the typical pasty, chalky appearance) tend to be white in most cases, but may change if the balance of uric acid crystals increases in the matrix.

not a day goes by here where someone is not concerned about discolored urates. and in most cases, research does support that dehydration is the most common cause of the increased color. but, IMO in many cases, so what? is your pee virtually clear 100% of the time because you drank your minimum of XX oz. of water today, or was it it perhaps really dark yellow this afternoon after working out or sweating hard in the sun? it's not as if that would cause you to run to your doctor right away. granted, in a perfect world i would love every reptile urate to be chalky white, but it's not going to happen all the time. if it's due to improper husbandry, well, that has to be corrected. if it's coexisting with signs of other diseases, then yes, there's something going on that needs to be fixed. but when it's transient or sporadic it's rarely an issue as long as husbandry is fine and water can be had whenever necessary.

i'm very happy with my husbandry, but still see the occasional orangey urate. and since that's the extent of it in my chams i don't give it another thought. i know me saying this isn't going to change the panic that some people feel when they see it and don't understand it, but for me it rarely gives enough information by itself to say anything other than there's possibly some degree of dehydration.


dr o—

 

[Elizadolots]

Dr. O, one of my mantras on this board is: Everyone is entitled to one bad poop. Maybe I need to expand that to: Everyone is entitled to one bad pee or poop.

 

[Dr O]

Dr. O, one of my mantras on this board is: Everyone is entitled to one bad poop. Maybe I need to expand that to: Everyone is entitled to one bad pee or poop.

Well, it sure beats "Om" for meditation!