What would you have done? Injured Quadricornis Purchase

[ChamieKeeper]

OK so it appears I have the chameleon bug.
That's all fine and dandy as I am committed to the best loving care possible I can give my chameleons.

I have an apartment to myself and it is a downstairs unit and it is constantly very cool in here if you don't have a heat lamp on you. My veiled has one and my Pygmies do as do my other animals. When I saw the quadricornis chameleons at my LRS (local reptile shop) I figured I could house a couple more. I went home and did my research about the quadricornis species and saw that they like cool temps, which was nice because my apartment is frequently cool being downstairs and only has one sunny window.

So I knew I would need two cages for the pair I was looking at purchasing and lighting would be seemingly a UVB bulb and temps would be self controlled nice and low. Don't over supplement this species etc etc etc. Did my homework and they still sounded like I wanted to buy them.

So I get to the store again about a week later and they still have the Quadricornis pair I sought. Great! First thing I notice is the male is very actively pacing the cage at the shop. I figured it was maybe the atmosphere or the female bugging him and asked to hold/look at him. He was very nice and calm in my hand and I looked him over as good as I could. He looked hydrated and awesome colors and I thought all his features and limbs and everything was perfect this time. (Some of you may remember the condition my veiled was in when I brought her home from petco, I keep getting sick or injured chamies!)

When I purchased the pair and got them home I noticed the male had a broken real sail. The people at the shop were discounting the pair of quadricornis to try and get me to buy them because I was deciding in the shop. I figured they just wanted to make a sale and was happy to receive a $30 discount from $200 for the pair. I paid the $170 in a good mood thinking I got a deal until I realized he was injured when I got home. I quickly looked over the female and she looks perfect.

The male however has the broken real sail fin with a bone or two hanging out. His tail is fine and everything else is fine.

I fed and watered them than day and of course they ate and drank like they have never eaten and drank before. Like always when I get a chameleon home from a pet shop.

The next day I brought the pair of quadricornis back into the store and told the manager about the broken sail fin on the male. I told him the damage was obviously old damage and happened before I bought the chameleon and he agreed. It seems as though he may have known the chameleon was damaged now, by the way he discounted the price $30 off the pair while I was making my final in store decision on the purchase. I think they may have tried to pass me off an injured male at a discounted price because I did not notice the injury at first. They also did not include a receipt with the purchase that day and did not tax me for the purchase.

So the guy said he did not notice the quadricornis male was injured and said he would replace him. That is fine with me as I still want a pair of quads because they are beautiful and my apt was made for them and I will provide separate caging and one day hopefully try to mate.

I ended up taking the female back home with me and left the male at the store with the manager. I still have no receipt but he told me he would pick up another male quad on Thursday to which I replied I would be back to pick it up on Friday.

For one, I feel bad for the injured male. I guess they took him to the San Diego reptile show or something. Somebody obviously hurt the chameleon and broke his tail sail fin. For two, I feel kinda funny not having a receipt for any of this, even though the guy insist he knows me and will take care of me. Three, I think this shop tried to pull one over on me and sell me an injured chameleon by the way they discounted the chameleon to try and make the sale without me even asking for money off. Four, They still owe me a healthy male quad, for which I have no proof, that I am supposedly able to pick up Friday. I was afraid with bones hanging out that the male would later get an infection that would shorten his lifespan, and possibly not breed with my female at all, so I left him there.

What would you guys have done in this situation? I seriously tried to look them over my best when I purchased them and I honestly did not notice the injury on the despite everything else I looked over on him before I bought him until I got home. I do not think it was possible he received the injury during transit with the female for a mile or two down the street.

Anything anyone has to input would be cool. This will be my fourth and fifth chameleon in current possession once I get a new male replacement. I have had a few Chameleons in the past and like I said will take full care of them, so please don't argue my decision to purchase the quads. Lets focus on the issue at hand. Thanks guys in advance for any input you have.

 

[ChamieKeeper]

PS.. will post pics of the female soon as I still have her right now. She has awesome skin texture and nice bright lime green and yellows with a blue stripe.
The male was beautiful too I fell bad for him. I feel like I should take him too when I get the replacement male? I just can't feel justified buying more injured chameleons. For once I stood up for myself and brought the injured male back to the shop.

Was that the right thing to do?

 

[lisa h]

No one can tell you if it was the right thing to do. There are many posts on the forums on the pros and cons of buying/"rescuing" chameleons from petstores. You have to decide what you can live with, and what *you* feel is the moral/correct thing to do.

 

[ChamieKeeper]

Here's the female now.
She seems pretty happy and healthy here accept I need to get her a live tree.
She drinks a lot and eats quite a bit. Urates and stool look good.
Only thing I see on her is she has "cage nose" a bit. I'm not worried about that at all. She looks perfect to me.

Just need the male now. Hopefully they come through with their word and bring me a new male Quad. If they do, I might even be nice and take the injured one too. Good karma all around? Never happen in today's world though. We'll see! That's all I'm going on here for a $150 chameleon at the moment as I have no proof of purchase.

Here she is minus live plants/trees. I love the quads sails and fins! So neato.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

I would have taken him back. Its a hard decision to make. But if the store had offered him to me for free to see if he could be rehabbed i might have given it a shot. But i still would have wanted a replacement also. Its hard because we are dealing with live animals but if that were a car or home you were buying you would have expected it to be in saleable good condtion. you should expect the same conditions with any animal you purchase.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

She looks a little thin but thats to be expected. She doesnt look to be beat up or bruised from shipping. Thats a good thing. Good luck...hope you get the male soon.

 

[ChamieKeeper]

I appreciate the replies folks.

Yes, they don't feed or water them very well at any place I have been to.
When they got home they both drank half a dripper of water practically and ate 6 LARGE crickets each which was too wide for them but all I had. They chewed them down like a couple cows..

Usually a dump of water with a cup and some crickets in a dusty ol cage is what I see pet stores give them. Sad.

Never have a seen a shop properly dripping their chamies yet. I guess I have to stop going to shops. Will buy from breeders from now on. I guess the slight extra cost and shipping time is worth while.

 

[JaxyGirl]

I definitely think you made the right decision by taking him back...I know that you probably felt terrible in doing so...but as you stated he might have gotten an infection or worse then you would have to deal with the problem of rehabilitating what was supposed to be a healthy cham to begin with...

 

[ChamieKeeper]

That's pretty much what I told the guy.
I said look man if I keep the male I pretty much have to go spend $100 at the vet like right now on him and I just bought him from you. He said he would replace him. Fingers crossed. He seems like a straightforward guy, even though It's iffy on weather or not they tried to pass me an injured quad. He could have just said "oh man you have no receipt doesn't matter if we didn't give it to you no refunds that could have happened anytime". So at least they are doing the right thing and replacing him.

I will still always feel bad for the quad male I returned. He was beautiful!

 

[ChamieKeeper]

Well today is Friday!

But I drove down there and they had no quadricornis for me that they owe me.

He told me to come back tomorrow.

I have never even seen a Quadricornis in person before and this guy thinks he will have one by tomorrow for me if he does not today? That's crazy. I'm going to drive down there again tomorrow and waste gas for nothing. If they didn't have it for me after having a weeks time, there's no way they will have it overnight.

I refuse to call to see if they got it. I have to be there in person to make sure they know I'm serious. I will be in there every single day until they get me a new chameleon or give me my money back, neither of which they seem to be trying to do.

Feels like I'm being screwed for $150. I'll throw rocks through windows if that is the case.

P.S.. thanks for listening to me vent. =P

 

[Carlton]

Well today is Friday!

But I drove down there and they had no quadricornis for me that they owe me.

He told me to come back tomorrow.

I have never even seen a Quadricornis in person before and this guy thinks he will have one by tomorrow for me if he does not today?
P.S.. thanks for listening to me vent. =P

It is possible he is having a quad shipped in for you, and it could arrive in a day. There may be weather delays from his supplier depending on where he is...its really hot to ship a montane cham right now. We don't know enough about the shop owner or his supplier to guess. If he doesn't have the cham tomorrow I would give him one last "friendly" chance. Get a firm date of delivery, the terms of your exchange, and get it in WRITING! Don't get mad in public at this point, but be firm. If he can't get you the healthy male I think I'd ask for a refund and leave it at that. You don't want to end up with another marginal male from a hasty supplier.

I may have missed this in your earlier posts, but do you have the original receipt for the pair? Even if no paperwork was done on the return (not a great way to run a business...it's too easy for either party to misunderstand, forget, assume, etc), your original receipt does show that you paid for 2 chams and only have one now.

Poor little cham. I hope he gets to a good keeper so he can be treated.

 

[ChamieKeeper]

Never had a receipt to begin with. The shop discounted the chamies $30 without me even asking just to make the sale to me. Then I realized the health issues when they got home. They were trying to push them out the door and didn't bother with a receipt for some reason. (gee I wonder why!)

I have nothing in writing or any proof of the whole thing. Only proof I have is the female quad who is getting fat and healthy now like she should be.

Yes I will be asking for (demanding) a complete refund shortly if I am not given a new male. I thought I was purchasing a healthy pair of chamies that I could maybe breed one day. I even waited to buy them and did research on them first and all that this time and now this huge thing goes wrong.

I will probably ask for a refund tomorrow if I do not get a new chameleon in my hand. This just isn't right any way you look at it.

At this point, I would almost be happy to post the shop details, but for my own sake, I will wait until tomorrow and see what happens. I really either need my money or a Quadricornis male that is not injured. I don't want to jeopardize what I am owed by posting the store information just yet.

The chameleon I returned is still sitting there in a messy cage with no dripper. They dump a cup of water on his tree a day and that's it. He's getting skinnier and skinnier each time I see him. This is a bogus situation for me. I probably won't buy another chameleon unless I have a vet standing right there next to me from now on.

 

[Carlton]

Never had a receipt to begin with. The shop discounted the chamies $30 without me even asking just to make the sale to me. Then I realized the health issues when they got home. They were trying to push them out the door and didn't bother with a receipt for some reason. (gee I wonder why!)

I have nothing in writing or any proof of the whole thing. Only proof I have is the female quad who is getting fat and healthy now like she should be.

Yes I will be asking for (demanding) a complete refund shortly if I am not given a new male. I thought I was purchasing a healthy pair of chamies that I could maybe breed one day. I even waited to buy them and did research on them first and all that this time and now this huge thing goes wrong.

I will probably ask for a refund tomorrow if I do not get a new chameleon in my hand. This just isn't right any way you look at it.

At this point, I would almost be happy to post the shop details, but for my own sake, I will wait until tomorrow and see what happens. I really either need my money or a Quadricornis male that is not injured. I don't want to jeopardize what I am owed by posting the store information just yet.

The chameleon I returned is still sitting there in a messy cage with no dripper. They dump a cup of water on his tree a day and that's it. He's getting skinnier and skinnier each time I see him. This is a bogus situation for me. I probably won't buy another chameleon unless I have a vet standing right there next to me from now on.

Sorry, I meant to edit my earlier post but got into some computer glitch. I reviewed the thread. Here's my view of this:

NEVER NEVER buy an animal without a receipt! You can't claim anything without it (even if you "know" the facts). Go back tomorrow and firmly but politely get one of the following:

a firm delivery date for a new male
a credit for a future cham and make sure you can inspect before accepting it
a refund of the male's price

Get it in WRITING! This is the reasonable request anyone should honor. Don't get emotional yet...it clouds everyone's judgement. Wait for him to honor the deal and THEN rant all you wish to about the shop's practices.

I wouldn't get my self worked up over being gouged into buying a damaged cham. You don't have any proof either way. Times are tough...got to keep the livestock moving as it costs the shop $$ to maintain them for very long (even incorrectly).

I find it very difficult to believe no one noticed an injury serious enough to show exposed bone. Of course, the shop shouldn't have accepted it from the supplier but unfortunately it is also your responsibility to inspect your purchase thoroughly before accepting it. What a wholesale supplier accepts as typical cosmetic damage to a wc cham may be a lot different than what you do. The shop may have no idea what a healthy male quad should look like. We can't see it so can't judge. It could be worse...without a receipt they could refuse to replace the male at all.

Sounds like this isn't a store you should be supporting if they treat their animals so poorly. But, you don't have a choice now...give them one last chance to make good, be firm, not emotional, get it in writing, and then walk away forever.

If, at the end of your deal they are not caring for the poor injured male, file a negligence/cruelty complaint and get the local animal inspectors out to that shop.

There is one other option some keepers might follow. Get the injured male free of charge so it can be seen by a vet. This way it gets attention and away from poor care, you get your male (who might recover just fine), and the shop won't be able to make a profit on it by selling it to someone else.

 

[ChamieKeeper]

I have tried asking for a receipt.
The response I get is "Oh we know you don't worry we'll take care of you".
Tomorrow I won't take that for an answer though.

As far as I'm concerned, delivery date for me to pick up the new male was TODAY and has already about come and gone. So, I am starting to suspect some fishy stuff now for sure.

Yes, It's hard to say what happened and who knew about the injury.
I thought I looked the chameleon over very well in the shop and did not see it myself until I got home. Then I realized why the poor thing was pacing the cage walls all night.

If I were to think graphically about it, it is possible they could have tried to straighten then broken fin in the shop when they sold it to me that I did not see them do. I would hate to think somebody could be that way though. But then again I never noticed in the shop until I got home and his fin was sagging.

For some reason I don't think they are going to give me the injured male free of charge when I still can't get a receipt, a new male or my money back.

Also it will be an annoyance for me to file something against the shop for negligence but I suppose it is now my responsibility because I was gouged into buying an inured animal.

I know you guys are trying to help but I have trouble seeing the good in this situation. I'm almost ready to just go back there and grab the injured male and be done with it but I have to stand my ground somewhere.

I'll be back there tomorrow morning wondering where the new quad is. He keeps saying he has to go pick it up? I'm trying to think of where they have a stock of Quadricornis in Southern California? Oh well, wish me luck tomorrow. I'm trying to keep a clear head and will demand something or another at some point.

Thank you all very much.

 

[Carlton]

Then I realized why the poor thing was pacing the cage walls all night.

If I were to think graphically about it, it is possible they could have tried to straighten then broken fin in the shop when they sold it to me that I did not see them do. I would hate to think somebody could be that way though. But then again I never noticed in the shop until I got home and his fin was sagging.


Also it will be an annoyance for me to file something against the shop for negligence but I suppose it is now my responsibility because I was gouged into buying an inured animal.

I'm almost ready to just go back there and grab the injured male and be done with it but I have to stand my ground somewhere.

I'll be back there tomorrow morning wondering where the new quad is. He keeps saying he has to go pick it up? I'm trying to think of where they have a stock of Quadricornis in Southern California? Oh well, wish me luck tomorrow. I'm trying to keep a clear head and will demand something or another at some point.

Thank you all very much.

Well, the cham could have been pacing for many reasons...too small a cage, general stress from poor housing, feeling exposed to view, all sorts of things. We can't ask him. I would think an injured cham in pain would be less active, sitting quiet showing darker color unwilling to move.

Seriously doubt that the shop tried to "hide" the injury. Can't quite see how they could. People just didn't notice. In the excitement of the moment handling a cool animal for the first time a lot could be missed. What concerns me more is not treating the injury once it was found. That is neglect by anyone's standards.

Reporting the shop isn't your responsibility because they gouged you, but because you know an animal isn't being cared for correctly. It would be the same for any customer who sees it's condition and who knows it needs attention.

Stick to your course tomorrow. It may all work out. If not, you will have recourse through the Better Business Bureau, the Fauna Classifieds Board of Inquiry, local herp interest groups or pet interest groups. The shop must care somewhat about it's reputation. If they don't, they deserve the flack.

Actually, there are several large herp suppliers in your area who might well have a male quad. If you were in the midwest probably not! Good luck tomorrow!!!

 

[ChamieKeeper]

Reporting the shop isn't your responsibility because they gouged you, but because you know an animal isn't being cared for correctly. It would be the same for any customer who sees it's condition and who knows it needs attention.

I think what you fail to understand is they think that the male is fine. (I happen to know bones hanging out is not fine)
If I report them to animal control, they will say they think the animal is fine.
Care for an animal is partially in the eye of the beholder of what is proper.
To him, they are giving it water and food and that's fine.
I doubt anybody will do anything to them.. including animal control.

When I went in yesterday for the new quad that I did not receive, they pointed over to the injured one and said "Look he's still fine" as if trying to get me to take him again even though I already brought him back. I had to remind them that he will likely suffer from infection eventually if bones are left hanging out of his broken rear tail sail fin.

BBB is a joke. Nobody even cares about them. I have reported business to there and nobody even cares or does anything. Nor does anyone research the BBB before they make a purchase from a business in this day and age.

I basically have no recourse. That is why I will throw rocks through windows if I am not helped.

This is a prime example of how to piss off your customers if you are a pet shop owner. Sell them sick animals that you think are fine and don't give receipts and discount sick animals to get them out the door. Why should they care if they screw me anyways, I have no recourse I can take to get what I am owed.

I think a bit of emotion is called for at this point. We'll see how it pans out today. Somebody needs to get serious.
I know now that pet shops are a game of lives and money and will no longer patronize them.
If you think an animal with bones hanging out is fine, you are a sick individual who knows nothing about pet health care, and obviously won't care about much else either. You then likely don't pay any attention to details and shouldn't be running a business. Hopefully it fails because of his ignorance.

 

[dale1]

well i hope that yyou either get your money back or a cham. but this is a prime example of why i never buy animals of any kind from a pet store. my LPS is a petdumb but they take good care of their reptiles. the last cham they had was misted 3 to 5 times a day and the cages are clean.
but without a recite they can refuse to deal with you. wish you the best! and hope you dont have to throw rocks thro the window to prove your point.

dale

 

[ChamieKeeper]

Well I got a receipt initialed by one of the store clerks.
That's as far as I'm getting today but much better than nothing.
He said a few other types of chameleons came in but not the quad.
He also tried to offer me some frogs, which I declined.

Now it's a waiting game to see if I really get a new quad male.
If I do, I will also purchase the injured quad male from them, if they are willing to discount him. Also I appreciate the help I have received through PM and this forum.

I almost feel guilty posting all this in a place where we all love our chamies since it's such a horror story. Sorry to spring all this on you guys.

Will update when there is any more progress to speak of.
Still doing the waiting game but at least now I have a receipt.

 

[Lovereps]

If you're going to buy him, anyway....

Might you be better-off buying him now--at a serious discount-- before the stress of poor care, combined with his injury make him too far gone to rehabilitate?
I realize that you're arleady peeved , as they have failed to fulfill their obligation to you, as yet.

 

[laurie]

Might you be better-off buying him now--at a serious discount-- before the stress of poor care, combined with his injury make him too far gone to rehabilitate?
I realize that you're arleady peeved , as they have failed to fulfill their obligation to you, as yet.

I agree, he needs some rehab now rather than later. If the broken bones just happened then now is the time to get it addressed. If you leave him for a while then you need to be ready to walk away. Don't take home a chameleon that you know you will lose.jmo