Why vitamins usually recommended every two weeks??

[blue_cham]

Still learning, so forgive me

I am recently dealing with a 9 month old Cham with eye problems, which the vet is pretty sure isn't a vitamin A deficient issue. However, the whole ordeal has made me look closer at the the vitamin supplements and how often they are usually recommended. I see a lot of people recommending vitamin supplement every two weeks (twice a month) without a difference between what brand is being used or the species, ages or genders of the Cham.

Different brands also have different recommendations for how often, and have sometimes drasticaly different levels of certain vitamins. Examples using vitamin A (since that is what gave me a scare). Repashy Plus says every feeding and has 200,000 IU/lb of Vitamin A. Reptivite says 12 dusted crickets per week per 2.5 ounces of body weight, and has 99,910 IU/lb of Vitamin A.

Hopefully this isn't a stupid question, like I said, still new would very much like some opinions on the matter and hear what sort of scheduling you guys use. I'm thinking of increasing my vitamin usage (I use reptivite)? I currently dust 10-12 crickets with Reptivite every two weeks for my 9 month male panther.

Thank you for reading my ramblings

 

[Carlton]

Part of the problem is that the exact nutritional requirements for chams, and for many other diurnal herps isn't pinned down. Think of supplements as "gap fillers" instead of direct nutrition. The best way to provide your chams with good nutrition through digestion of healthy prey; as much variety as you can get. Feed the prey a balanced varied diet. There are some excellent gutloads available now. Focus more on this instead of dusts. Except for calcium. Most commercially available insect feeders are high in phosphorus, so our chams need daily calcium (without added D3) to help balance it.

Supplement vitamin dusts are used intermittently to fill in potential nutritional gaps created by a low diversity of insect prey or prey that isn't gutloaded well. The other problem is that vitamin A and vitamin D3 are fat soluble vitamins. They persist or build up in tissue over time, so are easier to overdose. Giving them daily is too much. Giving them weekly MAY be too much, but that varies by cham species. Montane species such as jackson's are a lot more sensitive to A and D3 than other species. There is no set rule unfortunately. More keepers are adding an occasional vit. A boost to their supplementation schedule, but it needs to be done carefully. Too much A can be toxic, too much D3 can interfere with calcium metabolism.

 

[nightanole]

Id also like to add that most chams that end up at the vet are over supplemented, not under. Remember this is a backup/insurance, not a staple.

I dont even vit supplement my chams. I get VIT-ALL from sticky tongue farms, and feed it to the feeders as a gut load.

 

[blue_cham]

Part of the problem is that the exact nutritional requirements for chams, and for many other diurnal herps isn't pinned down. Think of supplements as "gap fillers" instead of direct nutrition. The best way to provide your chams with good nutrition through digestion of healthy prey; as much variety as you can get. Feed the prey a balanced varied diet. There are some excellent gutloads available now. Focus more on this instead of dusts. Except for calcium. Most commercially available insect feeders are high in phosphorus, so our chams need daily calcium (without added D3) to help balance it.

Supplement vitamin dusts are used intermittently to fill in potential nutritional gaps created by a low diversity of insect prey or prey that isn't gutloaded well. The other problem is that vitamin A and vitamin D3 are fat soluble vitamins. They persist or build up in tissue over time, so are easier to overdose. Giving them daily is too much. Giving them weekly MAY be too much, but that varies by cham species. Montane species such as jackson's are a lot more sensitive to A and D3 than other species. There is no set rule unfortunately. More keepers are adding an occasional vit. A boost to their supplementation schedule, but it needs to be done carefully. Too much A can be toxic, too much D3 can interfere with calcium metabolism.

Thank you Carlton! This explanation helps me make some sense, I appreciate it. Guess I didn't realize how little we still know about these awesome critters. If I could ask one off-shoot question of you?? Gut loading is also still new to me (what isn't I suppose ). I made up my own gut load from fresh veggies and some fruit and froze it, (mainly mustard greens, collard greens, sweet potato and butternut squash. Smaller quantities of apple, orange, mango and carrot) and thaw as needed. But honestly, I put it together based on tons of readings on the forums and else where... but is it balanced okay? Am I missing things? Maybe my feeders would be better supplemented on a more balanced gut load that it bought? Like cricket crack or something?

 

[jamest0o0]

Some people researching this have actually said that most chameleons suffer from a lack of Vit A. I know a person that uses dendrocare 1-2x a week (has minimal d3 and vit) on their parsons with no issues. I personally have been doing a drop of vita A 1x a month and the occasional light d3 dusting if my chams dont get outside. I use Arcadia earth pro and sticky tongues mineral alternated at every feeding. I also dust with bee pollen and brewers yeast randomly(honestly not sure if it does anything...). This paired with gutloading has my chameleons healthy so far.

 

[blue_cham]

Some people researching this have actually said that most chameleons suffer from a lack of Vit A. I know a person that uses dendrocare 1-2x a week (has minimal d3 and vit) on their parsons with no issues. I personally have been doing a drop of vita A 1x a month and the occasional light d3 dusting if my chams dont get outside. I use Arcadia earth pro and sticky tongues mineral alternated at every feeding. I also dust with bee pollen and brewers yeast randomly(honestly not sure if it does anything...). This paired with gutloading has my chameleons healthy so far.

Thanks for the input James! I was looking at the Earth Pro A as well, if I understand correctly, it is all water soluble vitamins and caratanoids, so there is no risk of over supplement? Or do I have that wrong? I also cannot find it for sale tho... Is it a UK only thing?

And question to you and @nightanole ... What are your opinions on beta caratine? I brought up the vitamin A supplement idea (I know several keepers on the forums do it monthly) and she was very adamant that I not do that, and use beta caratine if I'm worried about Vit A. I hear lots of word of mouth on the forums both pro and cons for beta caratine... But I'm not sure what the sources of the information is from?

 

[Remkon]

Stickytongues Vit-all + miner-all should also provide what they need without having to follow the schedule of multivit on every alternating week.
I think Repashy has a similar solutiom with calcium plus + bug burger/cricket crack but don't pin me on it.
Both in addition to a good gutload of fruits and vegies for er feeders obviously.

I'm all for simifying care as much as possible so it's easy to carry over on holidays or w/e happens to me.

 

[jamest0o0]

Honestly, I haven't kept chameleons long enough to be sure of vitamins. I just know what works for me. I really doubt anyone is 100% certain on supplementing though, that's why it's mostly word of mouth. From what I've gathered from friends, and people that know more than me, along with reading what I can, chameleons benefit from preformed vitamin A and may not be able to convert beta carotene. So I would give some form of preformed Vitamin A 1x a month. While you learn more and get a feel for everything you can always adjust it down the road.

I got my earth pro a on lightyourreptiles. I talked to john courtney smith and he believes it to be safe for regular dustings. I've been using it with no problems so far.

 

[Remkon]

Honestly, I haven't kept chameleons long enough to be sure of vitamins. I just know what works for me. I really doubt anyone is 100% certain on supplementing though, that's why it's mostly word of mouth. From what I've gathered from friends, and people that know more than me, along with reading what I can, chameleons benefit from preformed vitamin A and may not be able to convert beta carotene. So I would give some form of preformed Vitamin A 1x a month. While you learn more and get a feel for everything you can always adjust it down the road.

I got my earth pro a on lightyourreptiles. I talked to john courtney smith and he believes it to be safe for regular dustings. I've been using it with no problems so far.

No time to compare r/n so ill ask... But on first glance the ingredients of earth pro a seem to be represented for a large part in the ingredients of vit-all, what's the added value?

 

[jamest0o0]

@Remkon I haven't used vit-all, I'd have to look it up. I just like Arcadia as a company so I figured I'd go with them. I'm sure it's probably not much different though.

 

[nightanole]

If you want to up the vit a, yea go with beta caratine can just feed it as a bug gut load. Remember they are supplements to make up for any short falls, they shouldnt be needed in a perfect setup, well other than calcium.