Would someone please explain...

[joefarah]

Would someone please explain to me the whole deal with Parsons chameleons.

Why are people who try to breed them given a hard time by other members of the chameleon community?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Nicodemayo]

I was wondering this too. I emailed curtis that has his mature breeders posted on kingsnake wondering the same thing and i got no response.

 

[westcoastchameleons]

Honestly,
I am not sure why they would be given a hard time by other community members. i would love to work with them one day in the future! It may be out of jealousy from those who dont own one. Although I am jealous of everyone that does, I have never made that a reason to cause issues, and nor should it ever be. If anything, when I see someone trying to breed them, it makes me happy. This is because I know that the chances of them being aorund in captivity, and in the wild could increase(not to mention, the chances of me owning one!)

Jake Bernstein

 

[Kent67]

Although I'm not sure to what you're referring exactly, there are a couple reasons for Calumma parsonii to be a sore spot for some keepers. The first, most obvious is that supporting the trade in smuggled animals is bad. The second is that roughly EIGHT TONS of Parson's chameleons were imported to the US from 1988-1995. By 2001 1% (186 pounds) were estimated to be left alive. While it is more than possible to successfully reproduce them in captivity, it is not easy and does not happen often even with the best of care. Largely, the grand expirement with Parson's chameleons has failed. Eight tons of imports to 186 pounds of long term captives and less than 200 offspring doesn't lie.

 

[Zoey]

So it basically a fact that they are rare and hard to keep up? am I getting that right?

 

[Julirs]

Actually he is referring to a KS ad where the person stated they were selling off the rest of their Parsons due to the fact they were getting such negative response and nasty emails. I thought it strange also and a weird thing to say in an ad.

 

[nateboston78]

Perhaps someone can shed some light as to why American outlook and sentiment on Parsonii is so skewed or different from European and Asian counterparts? Just trying to see the big picture.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Basically all Parsonii in the US and most of the ones in Europe are illegally imported since the CITES in 95 (don't quote me on the year). I say this because, to my knowledge, there have only been a couple successful breeding in the US. I think Ken Kalisch had two or three partially successful clutches in 93 and 94. Also there was someone else in 97. But other than that everything is a mystery. The Europeans have more Parsonii available and have been more success at breeding these animals. Many of these successful breeding have been with you use of drug induced laying because becoming egg bound is a major issue with female Parsonii.

But to answer your question, Curtis was trying to sell off a few of his younger Parsonii to focus on his oldest five. Well when he had these ads on ks people were complaining about prices and then since they were upset with prices they would through in the legality of Parsonii. Anyways, after so much of this complaining he doesn't want to deal with it anymore and is getting out of Parsonii.

Correct me if I am wrong Curtis.

-Chris

 

[Kent67]

Would someone please explain why they think it is ok to financially support the smuggling of protected wildlife?

Breeding Calumma parsonii in captivity is not impossible, but, when the "successful" European breeders have Calumma parsonii AND Calumma globiferum hatch from the SAME clutch, I question the validity of the term successful.

 

[Chuck G]

I am going to play devil's advocate and ask how many people have any wild caught chameleons and know the process before they end up in your cage?
Not just Parsonii.I have wild caughts I use for breeding purposes but I don't sell them to the public. I do agree too many Parsonii end up in the wrong hands as they did years ago to the demise of the chameleon.
Hopefully the higher price tag prevents alot of that.

 

[joefarah]

Thanks very much to Kent and Chris for your input.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Kent, you tell us the numbers from pre 1995 when they only cost about $50....but what are the numbers of post 1995 I would be willing to bet that post 1995 numbers of successful keeping (maybe not breeding) of Parsonii has increased tremendously. Now, lets look at the Maddy rainforest, conservation efforts are being taken but who really knows if this animal is not going to be on the extinct list.

I support the importing of a few, as long as the continue to have the high price tag. I mean I would even support raising the price of these animals. What this means to me is that the people who buy them will desprately research these animals to keep them healthy (I mean no one wants to lose $2,000). Now allong with successful keeping someone is bound to find out how to successfully breed them thus possibly making them as popular as panther chameleons.

-chris

 

[Justin Carl]

How long does a parosnii live for?

 

[joefarah]

How long does a parosnii live for?

I guess that depends on who's caring for it

 

[Chuck G]

Parsonii have reported to live to 20 years.

 

[Kent67]

Kent, you tell us the numbers from pre 1995 when they only cost about $50....but what are the numbers of post 1995 I would be willing to bet that post 1995 numbers of successful keeping (maybe not breeding) of Parsonii has increased tremendously. Now, lets look at the Maddy rainforest, conservation efforts are being taken but who really knows if this animal is not going to be on the extinct list.

I support the importing of a few, as long as the continue to have the high price tag. I mean I would even support raising the price of these animals. What this means to me is that the people who buy them will desprately research these animals to keep them healthy (I mean no one wants to lose $2,000). Now allong with successful keeping someone is bound to find out how to successfully breed them thus possibly making them as popular as panther chameleons.

-chris

No, I was talking numbers up to 2001. Do you know how many wild taken C. parsonii were imported to the US compared to Ch. calyptratus from the Arabian Peninsula? Far more C. parsonii were imported compared to wild taken Ch. calyptratus in the 90s and look what happened. Veileds established in captivity and Parson's did not. Calumma parsonii is not a species that is suitable to be kept by any but the most dedicated keeper, period. Since they don't breed readily in captivity, their survival as a species does not depend on captive breeding efforts. What they need is suitable wild habitat. Calumma parsonii has been found in agricultural areas and even in areas with relatively sparse trees. In other words, they have shown to be surviving despite the loss of primary forest in some areas. Other areas where this species occurs are set aside as national parks. It's best chances at survival are conservation, not captive breeding.

Now, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I believe sustainable quotas for many of the restricted Malagasy species would most likely not be detrimental to their survival. Having the floodgates wide open, the way they were in the eary 90's, was. CITES has given the Madagascar exporters THIRTEEN years to provide documentation to support the sustainability of a quota system and the exporters haven't provided it. If it could be proven, CITES would lift the restrictions and these animals would not be illegal to export.

Personally, I never thought Calumma parsonii a "difficult" animal to keep. It has very specific needs that seemed rather common knowledge back in the day. Apparently it no longer is. No matter what the price tag these animals carry, they will always find their way into innappropriate keeper's hands. It never ceases to amaze me when I see animals of this rarity and cost kept in cages smaller than I keep my carpet chameleons in, with no obvious water delivery system.