your opinion on breeding age/size?

[Fidel]

I have read some contrasting info on this topic, so I thought I'd get some opinions. I am refering to female panthers here, but it may apply to other species as well. Some sources say a female panther should be around a year, or more, and some say it depends on the size. I guess by that they mean a younger female could be breedable if the individual has a faster growth rate. I assume it will vary from one cham to the next. Also I have read that just because she is "ready", or receptive, doesn't neccesarily mean she should be breed just yet for health reasons. I have an approx. 7 month old female ambilobe panther who is begining to show receptive colors, but I think she is not big enough yet to handle carrying eggs.
.........so, let me hear what you think, thanks

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Another thing to consider, and a reason some caution against breeding a female before she's at least a year old, is that they are still growing and developing bones. The theory would be that egg production may rob calcium from bone development.
This could be true ( I have no evidence either way).

-Brad

 

[ChromaChameleons]

Personally, I think 7 months is a bit early yet. I would advise keeping the female out of a males site and visa versa. If she constantly sees a male, she could develop an infertile clutch anyway.

 

[westcoastchameleons]

I have read some contrasting info on this topic, so I thought I'd get some opinions. I am refering to female panthers here, but it may apply to other species as well. Some sources say a female panther should be around a year, or more, and some say it depends on the size. I guess by that they mean a younger female could be breedable if the individual has a faster growth rate. I assume it will vary from one cham to the next. Also I have read that just because she is "ready", or receptive, doesn't neccesarily mean she should be breed just yet for health reasons. I have an approx. 7 month old female ambilobe panther who is begining to show receptive colors, but I think she is not big enough yet to handle carrying eggs.
.........so, let me hear what you think, thanks

My personal opinion is that if a female is in the 9 to 10 month range, and is big enough to breed...This is okay. Although most of my females have been around a year old when bred, I bred one at 6 months a really long time ago...She passed before laying. So i would hold back until around 10 months.

On another note- Brad was absolutley right! It also takes a toll on the female at such a young age...They need the calcium for bone growth, and when they are bred, it all goes to the eggs.

Jake

Jake

 

[Jamescoop]

Does thisapply to veiled as well? Or are they a little younger/older?

 

[westcoastchameleons]

Although vieleds tend to be receptive at younger ages, i would hold the same standard. They need the extra development time.


Jake

 

[Chameleons By Design]

Hi this is a very good thread do to the fact that some chameleon owners tend to breed to young and stunt the grown of the poor cham. From our personel experiance we wait till there atleast ten months and some grow slower so those get pushed back and may go to twelve months till we breed them. Again this is just personel experiance and opinion . Thanks

 

[pohchunyee]

LOL..............my female panther didn't get interested in the male until she turn 1.5 years old... and then she finally allow him to mount her... I personally prefer to keep them till at least 1 years old before breeding, just to make sure that they are fully grown and their bones and body are strong enough to carry eggs. As said by Brad, breeding at younger age might rob the calcium used to build strong bones to produce eggs. Thats a big NO NO!!

 

[Fidel]

I agree, My male is just getting impatient. I keep telling him to keep his pants on, he'll get his chance.

 

[chrisandpugs]

More questions related to the female!

Hi!
How do you preven a female from producing infertile eggs? Is it true that even if you don't own a Male, a female can still produce infertile eggs? And let's say you do own a Male, does that mean you never visually expose the female to the Male if you don't intend to breed her yet or can a female still smell a Male even if she doesn't visually see him but is caged in the same room.
Do infertile eggs stress out the female, too? Can that also rob her of her calcium resources if she is less than a year old??

How do you prevent a female from being egg-bound? I thought it's making sure to provide soil to lay her eggs. Am I right?? Can there be other reasons for a female becoming egg-bound? I hear of so many female deaths due to being egg-bound.

Sorry, regarding all the above curious questions but none of my Chameleon books address this issue or it is just outdated information!!

 

[westcoastchameleons]

Hi!
How do you preven a female from producing infertile eggs? Is it true that even if you don't own a Male, a female can still produce infertile eggs? And let's say you do own a Male, does that mean you never visually expose the female to the Male if you don't intend to breed her yet or can a female still smell a Male even if she doesn't visually see him but is caged in the same room.
Do infertile eggs stress out the female, too? Can that also rob her of her calcium resources if she is less than a year old??

How do you prevent a female from being egg-bound? I thought it's making sure to provide soil to lay her eggs. Am I right?? Can there be other reasons for a female becoming egg-bound? I hear of so many female deaths due to being egg-bound.

Sorry, regarding all the above curious questions but none of my Chameleon books address this issue or it is just outdated information!!

You cant prevent a female from producing her eggs. As far as i know, she will only do this when her body is able to do so, which is usually an okay time to breed her at. If you are not planning on breeding the pair soon, visual contact will only usually strees them out in most cases. I dont thinkk they can smeel each other.

Infertile eggs also stress the female out, and like stated above...A female usually wouldnt produce her own eggs unless she was ready...Which usually means her bones are developed.

I am not sure about reasons why females die egg bound. The only one i know of is not providing an egg laying spot.

No need to apologize, that's why we are all here at the forums...

Jake

 

[Fidel]

I think overfeeding a female can be one cause infertile egg production.

 

[kinyonga]

I have a veiled chameleon that is over 4 years old that has never laid an egg and another one that is over 6 years old that has never laid an egg. These are not the only ones I have done this with. The last three+ died at an age older than 6 never having produced a single egg. When I do breed them they (younger than those ages) they produce good babies...but the clutches are about 2 dozen in size.

With panther chameleons I have not been able to stop them from cycling but I have kept the clutch sizes in the same range.

I attribute this to controlling their diet and slightly controlling their temperatures.

Generally, eggbinding is a husbandry issue (imbalances in nutrients, no appropriate nesting site, improper temperatures, etc.)....except for deformities in the eggs, eggs that have grown too large to lay, reproductive system "imperfections". Another husbandry related to husbandry...I hear of too many people having their females die eggbound that overfeed them a lot and cause them to have large clutches.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

Kinyonga:

From a previous post you said, "I attribute this to controlling their diet and slightly controlling their temperatures."

Could you please elaborate....

thx

 

[kinyonga]

I feed my females less than most people seem to and I keep the cage temperature a couple of degrees (Centigrade) cooler than I do the males to try to slow the females' metabolism a little bit. I don't starve them....my females aren't thin by any means....but they sure aren't fat.

If/when a chameleon has laid eggs (when I did want to have one do so)...I feed her well for a very few days after she has laid the eggs so that she can regain her strength and then cut back so she won't grow lots of follicles into eggs. You don't want to starve her...but you want to keep the diet controlled. When I know that she is producing the eggs, I then feed her well so that the eggs she is working on will be healthy and she will be healthy too.

When I first started doing this, I did it because some animals, in the years with low food supply, have a very low rate of reproduction but in the years with high food supply, they undergo a population explosion. I thought it might be worth trying in chameleons.

The above works for me....I tried it a little at a time....its not quite as simple as it sounds. You have to get that certain balance.

 

[Todnedo]

when I bred my female panthers I reduced the amount of food but, I also gave her gut loaded crickets and butter worms that were injected with a mix of calcium, vitamins, minerals, honey, bee pollen, and juice from the greens gutload. She laid three clutches of 30, 26 and 10 the last ten were not fertile.

She was 9 months old when I bred her back in dec. 06
So far 8 of the first 26 have hatched.
Next time I will put the eggs in a clutch like they were laid so they hatch all at once.

 

[PardalisGirl]

breeding age/size?

This is a very good topic. It is so tempting to try to breed a female as soon as she looks big enough. I want everything NOW!! Patience is a good thing though. I agree with everyone on that. They may look big, but they really need to have solid bone structure first. The bones grow in length first and after the major growth spurts they fill in more. I try to wait until at least ten months and maybe a year. I wait until she looks like she is a little tank. The length of time it takes to do this is different for every female. I want to see strong, sturdy and plump limbs. They need to be able to carry that belly around when they are gravid. The limbs also are an indicator of the condition of the body overall. Females need some sort of body fat (not obese) to complete the process and recover afterwards. Sure you want a clutch but you want her to live after that and lay another clutch too.

I've never had a female panther that has not been bred have infertile eggs. I've read that in books and people here say they have had it happen, but I have never experienced it. Egg binding, I think, is caused by lack of a suitable laying place and/or inadequate blood calcium levels and/or poor overall physical health. They can have too many eggs to support in the clutch too. They have to have strength and energy just to push those eggs out let alone dig their laying hole.

Question for Veiled owners........I have one pair of Veiled chams. One of the books I have says that female Veileds need to be bred as soon as they become receptive the first time (3 to 6 months!). It actually says that they will become egg bound and die if they are not bred then. I read that last night. It put me into a panic. I have a nice well acclimated WC male. I've had him for a while. I got a WC female about a month ago. She has got to be about 6 months old. I treated her for parasites and have been trying to fatten her up. She was extremely thin when I got her (import process and parasites). She's not thin now but she's not what I would call "sturdy" yet. I wanted to wait several months. What I read in the book freaked me out a bit. So...now I need some advise from the Veiled fanatics. I would really appreciate it!

 

[chrisandpugs]

Ready for more female breeding questions!!

Hi!
First of all, I want to thank all the breeders that responded back to my questions because I think there are enough of us on the forum that may find this information extremely valuable to enrich their own knowledge simply if they plan to breed one day or just out of general interest and curiosity.(Like me!)

Now, for my new questions:
1. Can a female still produce some infertile eggs if she is actually bred to a male or is that a contradictory question because it's assumed that once the copulation takes place, her entire egg clutch automatically gets fertilized.
However, if my assumption is wrong and your female can produce bothe fertile and infertile eggs in the same clutch, can you tell right away after you retrieve the eggs out of the soil, which eggs are fertile and which are not and discard the infertile eggs?

2. I read that once a female is mated, she can retain the sperm for future use to fertilize her future egg clutches. If that is true, breeders wouldn't need to introduce the female to the male anymore for actual copulation....correct??

Thanks again for your patience in replying back to my questions,
Christine

 

[Will Hayward]

Question:
Can a female still produce some infertile eggs if she is actually bred to a male or is that a contradictory question because it's assumed that once the copulation takes place, her entire egg clutch automatically gets fertilized.
However, if my assumption is wrong and your female can produce bothe fertile and infertile eggs in the same clutch, can you tell right away after you retrieve the eggs out of the soil, which eggs are fertile and which are not and discard the infertile eggs?

Answer:
Yes, in a group of eggs that has been the result of copulation by a male, there are still factors that will result in both fertilized and non-fertilized eggs (often called "slugs" in snake lingo or "Duds" in most else). Factors include, the fertility of the partners, the age of female, health, clutch size, and if the female was previously a virgin.

As far as defining which are fertilized and those that are not, there are a few things you can do. compare the eggs. There can be differences in colour, shape and size, however it is not always a certainty, they are just clues. Usually fertilized eggs from most chameleon species are more oblong, nice white, stiff exterior but not hard.

Question:
2. I read that once a female is mated, she can retain the sperm for future use to fertilize her future egg clutches. If that is true, breeders wouldn't need to introduce the female to the male anymore for actual copulation....correct??

Answer: True in part. Usually clutches secondary to the inital one where breeding took place, have a significantly lower fertility ratio.