Comparative Lighting Study

Mike Fisher

Mike Fisher

Established Member
I am undertaking a comparative lighting study. I will publish my observations and results here. The goal is to determine from an "old school" breeders perspective if the newest advancements in lighting will provide an observable response in chameleon health, both in adult breeder animals and hatch rates and vigor of offspring. Obviously it is intended be a long term study.

I have an offer from one vendor to provide equipment and lighting, but I'd like to open this up to any lighting vendor who wants to participate. Please PM me if you are a vendor that wants to opt in.

I am completely unbiased. I have never used any manufacturers UVB bulbs, instead I have been providing my chameleons with dietary D3 as their sole source of vitamin D. I will cover in detail the lighting I have been using and the dosing I have been using, as well as methodology I intend to use to adjust the dietary D3 for the new UVB bulbs.

If I only get one vendor interested, it will be a comparative study between their system and what I have used successfully since the 90's.

Identical enclosures will be set up and comparison photos will be taken, along with my observational comments. I'll update the thread as needed, and questions are welcomed.
 
OH BOY! I love experiments! A lighting THROW DOWN!!

Hi Mike

This is a fantastic idea and will be great for the forum to get a study going!:D

I would love to participate..... if I can.... please!!?

What size / type cages are you using?

Can you post a pic of the cages so I can get a general idea of the plants?

And also how heavy / (type?) of screen mesh on top?

I / LightYourReptiles.com will donate a fixture....

and I am sure Arcadia will donate a bulb(s) or whatever is needed to further your study!

Thank you !
Todd

MODS...

question:

Can we make a sticky or promote this thread because it seems like a great study!??

I think it will be very VERY educational.

I hope Mike that other vendors will participate....

and so you can test Zoo Med and Exo Terra as well as Arcadia.




Any other vendors out there that want to participate??
 
As an early 90's old fart that went from T12 vita-lites with magnet starters (D3 lo dose every feeding) to the latest and greatest arcadia 12%.

I never had a MBD problem from the vets perspective.

Semi free range male veiled born 92 i believe, died late winter 98.
Semi free range male Oustalet's born early 2012.

Veiled stayed in open cage and walked from cage to 4ft away to look out window. That was the extent.

Oust basks under lamp for 2 hours in the morning and then makes several laps around the 15x18 room and several trips from the floor to the same veiled window. Ends up sleeping under the lamp from 6pm till lights out at 10pm 75% of the time. Also likes to hang out on top of the T5HO aluminum lamp to get warm if its 75 or below :p
 
Mike Fisher said:
I am undertaking a comparative lighting study. I will publish my observations and results here. The goal is to determine from an "old school" breeders perspective if the newest advancements in lighting will provide an observable response in chameleon health, both in adult breeder animals and hatch rates and vigor of offspring. Obviously it is intended be a long term study.

I have an offer from one vendor to provide equipment and lighting, but I'd like to open this up to any lighting vendor who wants to participate. Please PM me if you are a vendor that wants to opt in.

I am completely unbiased. I have never used any manufacturers UVB bulbs, instead I have been providing my chameleons with dietary D3 as their sole source of vitamin D. I will cover in detail the lighting I have been using and the dosing I have been using, as well as methodology I intend to use to adjust the dietary D3 for the new UVB bulbs.

If I only get one vendor interested, it will be a comparative study between their system and what I have used successfully since the 90's.

Identical enclosures will be set up and comparison photos will be taken, along with my observational comments. I'll update the thread as needed, and questions are welcomed.
Click to expand...

This is a great idea. I am looking forward to your updates
 
Regarding caging, pictures below. They each measure 16X16X30. The photos show them after they were just set up. They typically get so dense with plant growth that I have to prune and propagate every two months. They are currently set up so that a 48" fixture can span three enclosures. I will get into detail as to the plants and lighting used when I get them all set up for the study.

Regarding time frame/length of study, probably at least a few years. You can't embark on a breeding program for much less than that, especially when one of the species I'm working with has an incubation time of 14 months.

Parameters for judging will be fairly loose, mostly based on observation, but I am prepared to document hatch rates and neonate survival if I get that far. I do have eggs incubating, so given that I have hatchlings, I will split them and include them in the study at that point. So, as scientific as I can without getting into blood work. If anyone has any other ideas on this please feel free to contribute.

A thank you to lightyourreptiles.com for sponsoring this study. I hope other vendors choose to sponsor as well. I'll give a tentative start date of 10/01/13, so that will give lighting vendors time to get in on this and also give me time to get it all set up.
 

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Lighting Experiment

Hi Mike,

Have you heard from any other sponsors about participating?

I sure wish one of them would supply a Zoo Med product.....

and / or a Hagen (Exo Terra) product to put up against the Arcadia.

:cool:

Oh well.....

If not, then we can still discuss how we should proceed.

I was thinking about supplying you with one of the 24"
(sorry nothing smaller in the HO t5) double bulb HO T5s fitted with the 6% Arcadia bulb and then one of the 6.5k daylight bulbs.

Maybe you could use it over 2 cages since you have so many in a line?

However you think best to conduct this.


I am so excited -- Like a kid ! I love this stuff!
:D

Thank you!

Todd



Mike Fisher said:
Regarding caging, pictures below. They each measure 16X16X30. The photos show them after they were just set up. They typically get so dense with plant growth that I have to prune and propagate every two months. They are currently set up so that a 48" fixture can span three enclosures. I will get into detail as to the plants and lighting used when I get them all set up for the study.

Regarding time frame/length of study, probably at least a few years. You can't embark on a breeding program for much less than that, especially when one of the species I'm working with has an incubation time of 14 months.

Parameters for judging will be fairly loose, mostly based on observation, but I am prepared to document hatch rates and neonate survival if I get that far. I do have eggs incubating, so given that I have hatchlings, I will split them and include them in the study at that point. So, as scientific as I can without getting into blood work. If anyone has any other ideas on this please feel free to contribute.

A thank you to lightyourreptiles.com for sponsoring this study. I hope other vendors choose to sponsor as well. I'll give a tentative start date of 10/01/13, so that will give lighting vendors time to get in on this and also give me time to get it all set up.
Click to expand...
 
Venutus1 said:
Hi Mike,

Have you heard from any other sponsors about participating?
Click to expand...

Not a peep.:(

Venutus1 said:
I was thinking about supplying you with one of the 24"
(sorry nothing smaller in the HO t5) double bulb HO T5s fitted with the 6% Arcadia bulb and then one of the 6.5k daylight bulbs.

Maybe you could use it over 2 cages since you have so many in a line?
Click to expand...

Works for me.:)

Venutus1 said:
I am so excited -- Like a kid ! I love this stuff!
:D

Thank you!

Todd
Click to expand...

Thank you!
 
And we are off.....!

I am sending the HO T5 fixture with One Arcadia 6% UV B bulb and one 6.5k full spectrum day light bulb in it to Mike to test out!

Mike, please keep us posted on this trial!

It is too bad no one else (no other merchant that is) has come forward to donate their light / bulb / light set up like LightYourReptiles.com and Arcadia have.


Anyway, thank you again Mike!

Here is what is being tested...see pics.

Mike can explain the parameters of the test better than I, if there are any questions.

Thank you
Todd
LightYourReptiles.com
 

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Very nice Mike! Good luck with this! I'm surprised you have not gotten more contributors for your study...

One question(largely unrelated to this topic),

What are the tubs you use for the bottoms of your cages? Where might one find them? I.use many similar sized cages and love the idea of planted screen cages.
 
Thank you Todd for sponsoring this!:)

coldbloodedAL,
For the plastic tubs, I built a thermo-form machine to make them from ABS sheet back in the 90's. The planted cage idea never caught on and I sold all of the equipment about ten years ago.

I did have about a dozen larger cages that used concrete mixing tubs. Those cages were in my way a few years ago and I smashed them down to fit in a dumpster. Kinda wish I hadn't done that now.:eek:
 
Mike Fisher said:
Regarding time frame/length of study, probably at least a few years. You can't embark on a breeding program for much less than that, especially when one of the species I'm working with has an incubation time of 14 months.

Parameters for judging will be fairly loose, mostly based on observation, but I am prepared to document hatch rates and neonate survival if I get that far. I do have eggs incubating, so given that I have hatchlings, I will split them and include them in the study at that point. So, as scientific as I can without getting into blood work. If anyone has any other ideas on this please feel free to contribute.
Click to expand...
Honestly this sounds more like personal observation than a study.

Not trying to be a jerk, but almost nothing in your request for free lights has even defined the aim of the study.

No parameters have been defined. Studies, at least in engineering and science, have set start and end times and have well defined methods of measure to attempt to satisfy the aim. If you are not using blood work, then what are you using in your metric? Specifically?

Hatch rates of what? wild caught or captive f2? Because hatch rates will not only depend on the parents environmental factors but genetics. Do you have a baseline for hatch and or growth and or mortality rates in the wild for your specific species?

In my industry, NDT couldn't even begin based on your information. Just curious.
 
Couple more questions.

How are you verifying the D3 content and ratio thats going to be used?
Are you weighing the amount of D3 in conjunction with the weight of the individuals included in the Study?
If so what unit of measure will you be using? Grams? milligrams? IU?
Do you have a solar meter?
If so what brand and when was it calibrated?

These are ISO 9000 quality standards. Are you planning on using a specific testing standard?
 
Patrick,

I already have enough stress in my life without dealing with you. It is purely an observational study, nothing more. It was not even my idea.

I did not request free lights, they were offered.

If you want to do your own (real) study, you are more than welcome. Maybe you could request that the mods change the name of the thread since it does not live up to your industry standards.

If this is the type of response I am going to deal with from you, I will return the lights to Todd.

ISO 9000?!.....Jesus.
 
Sorry Mike. I misunderstood.

I saw "comparative lighting study" and thought, GREAT!



Im not judging, just clarifying.

I know you are a college graduate and was hoping to see another member attempt present quality usable information to enhance chameleon care. I also know that you are busy with other important things going on. As a fellow business owner I get it.

Really though, words matter. People come here to learn, including me. Unfortunately so many people just want to offer information that they don't even know themselves to remain relevant. I have even offered to others( a moderator) my own resources to prove theories, but when it came down to it, it was easier to just post assumptions or made up theories rather than prove them. We're all busy.

I only mentioned ISO standards because I know you get it. ISO practices ensure credibility (as you know). It may come across as the chameleon police when I ask questions but in all honesty we need more members questioning not less.

I hope you do get the time eventually to invest in a real study. Sincerely.
 
re: words matter....The title of the thread was suggested by the man who owns the lighting company supplying the equipment.

The scope of the comparison was stated in the first post. For all intensive purposes, it is nothing more than a long running review on how my animals do under these lights compared to what I have been using.

Like I've already stated, I will go into detail about how I compensate my D3 supplementation to account for the added UVB. I will be as detailed as I can in this regard in IU/kg. since I do formulate all of my mineral powders.

Much of what you asked for would require a fully equipped testing lab and certainly would not be done by a hobbyist who actually keeps chameleons to relax.

This thread is not designed to be the "definitive" anything. It will just be my ramblings on how my chameleons are doing under the new lights and it might help someone who is sitting on the fence about getting some of the new HO bulbs going.

I will contribute in the best way I know how, and in my own way.
 
Chameleopatrick said:
Couple more questions.

How are you verifying the D3 content and ratio thats going to be used?
Are you weighing the amount of D3 in conjunction with the weight of the individuals included in the Study?
If so what unit of measure will you be using? Grams? milligrams? IU?
Do you have a solar meter?
If so what brand and when was it calibrated?

These are ISO 9000 quality standards. Are you planning on using a specific testing standard?
Click to expand...

I know you are looking for a scientific study, but that is most definitely not what you will find on a forum, that takes money, time and a laboratory setting.

On a side note, ISO 9000 can be a joke, I have seen companies get it who no way deserved the so called prestige. Its a corporate standard that puts wool over many eyes. Just because someone says they are ISO 9000 certified or follow those standards, doesn't mean they are necessarily following it or running things better than someone who hasn't gone through the trouble to get certified or research the standards. I personally have recent experience with a company that was ISO 9001 certified and got shut down for serious violations after they passed their ISO audit.

I feel many use these terms to try to elevate themselves unnecessarily.
 
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