New Veiled, need advice..

So this will be my second veiled, my first one was about 3.5 - 4.5 months old and she abruptly passed away after only three weeks at home. We went back to the store, still unsure what happened, they told me it looked like progressed MBD, but it still did not look like it in other aspects. Her spine was curved, tail was kinked, and she had a hard time getting around. I brought her there Saturday and she was supposed to go to the vet as soon as they could get an appointment for her, well she never made it.

I will start with the set up for the new one I am picking up tomorrow:

It is a smaller cage (I am building a custom one so it will be a little while) but 8anyways: 12x12x18
I have a 12 in hood with a 5.0 reptisun UVB/UVA light
I have an infrared heat lamp on the opposite side of the tank so she can not get to close, it is there to bring the temperature up during the day, off at night.
There is one life Orchid with the natural passable substrate on the bottom (coconut husk mix, made for reptiles)
There are thee fake plants and plenty of perching space.
I dust all feeders with calcium
I mist the tank often throughout the day and set a drip system up for about an hour a day.
I have pin head crickets, meal worms, and wax worms.
We do outside time for 1 - 2 hours a week usually with heaving misting on the tree.

Any advice would be great, please do not comment on her cage size I know it is a bit smaller than recommended but right now she is tiny (less than 2 months old) so she will have plenty of room for a while.

Thanks,

Jen

Advice: Don't buy from the same store. If it was indeed MBD, MBD of that degree would not happen within three weeks. It's good that they were willing to get her to the vet.. but at the same time you need to be careful. Purchasing from a site sponsor or a forum member may be a better idea. Even purchasing at a reptile show would be great.

12x12x18, sounds like you are using an exo terra. They are fine to use because they have good air flow, but you will want to upgrade as soon as possible.

I would not use any substrate.

Use some real plants too, that will help with humidity.

Set up the dripper to go all day if possible.

I would also suggest getting a male if this is the second chameleon you will be getting.


Why not wait a few weeks before purchasing another chameleon? If you haven't already read up on all of the site's resources, now would be a great time to do so.
If you need some reading let us know and I'm sure someone can post some.

Thanks,
Well I am actually quite educated on the husbandry on veiled, my mom was a reptile rescue, but times change so does advice. The new one I am getting they are actually giving it to me as a replacement since mine passed in their care within three weeks of purchasing. I am unsure the sex, I will go to see them tomorrow. They only get one at at time so it will be take them or wait a few months.

Yes it is an exo-terra terrarium, other than the size I am quite happy with it.
The living plant that is in there is doing fantastic and it really helps with the humidity. I know substrate is not recommended but I want to mimic a real world style cage. The type I am using is guaranteed to be passable, I will be watching and make sure this one also avoids the bottom as my baby Alejandra did. I want more real plants so with the larger cage we will have more.

A few things I forgot to include:

Humidity: between 50 - 70 depending on time and day.

Temp: lowest 72 (night) during the day 80ish and basking temps in the 90s

Supplement: Flukers Phosphorous free Calcium and D3 (Additional Suggestions Please)

Cage: as I mentioned it is an Exo-Terra it is a glass/screen mix.

The one I am planning on building will have a glass front, back, and bottom, it will also have a mesh top and sides, I am excited.

So I think that is it. THanks

JenniferAlicia said:

Thanks,
[...]The type I am using is guaranteed to be passable, I will be watching and make sure this one also avoids the bottom as my baby Alejandra did. I want more real plants so with the larger cage we will have more.

A few things I forgot to include:

Humidity: between 50 - 70 depending on time and day.

Temp: lowest 72 (night) during the day 80ish and basking temps in the 90s

Supplement: Flukers Phosphorous free Calcium and D3 (Additional Suggestions Please)

Cage: as I mentioned it is an Exo-Terra it is a glass/screen mix.

The one I am planning on building will have a glass front, back, and bottom, it will also have a mesh top and sides, I am excited.

So I think that is it. THanks

Click to expand...

You need to research supplementation a bit more.
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/

Babies do not require 90s for temperatures because they do not thermoregulate well. I haven't had a baby in a while so I can not remember the suggested temperature off-hand.

Sure, the substrate is passable - but does passable include the ability to be digested? It could come out the same way it came in.

Basking temp for baby veilds is 80 degrees. You'll need CA and CA+d3 and multivite. The thread Syn gave you will help you put together a dusting schedule. I'm also going to reiterate that substrate of any kind is not recommended, babies are very prone to impaction. It won't take much to block it up.

Well I will change the temp, these were previous set up for me older girl who is no longer with us.


This is the one reason I never joined a forum I get so much mixed advice,

What I do no realize is how they can live in the wild with ground substrate, but I am supposed to remove mine the issue is if I remove the substrate I will have to remove my live plants....

Does anyone else have any opinions on substrates? I was told it was alright and the recommended types...

Please stop referring me to the reference section, I am hoping for some personal opinions on additional supplements for health and preventative medicine especially for babies.

JenniferAlicia said:

What I do no realize is how they can live in the wild with ground substrate, but I am supposed to remove mine the issue is if I remove the substrate I will have to remove my live plants....

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They are arboreal, are they not?

JenniferAlicia said:

Does anyone else have any opinions on substrates? I was told it was alright and the recommended types...

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Yes, don't use it.

JenniferAlicia said:

Please stop referring me to the reference section, I am hoping for some personal opinions on additional supplements for health and preventative medicine especially for babies.

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I'm sorry but if that is the way you are going to act, why would anyone help you? It seems you are only going to listen to what you want to hear.
Many people here use the reference that was given and will give you the exact same "opinion".

There is what is right and what is wrong.

Preventative medicine? Certainly - preventative care.

JenniferAlicia said:

Well I will change the temp, these were previous set up for me older girl who is no longer with us.


This is the one reason I never joined a forum I get so much mixed advice,

What I do no realize is how they can live in the wild with ground substrate, but I am supposed to remove mine the issue is if I remove the substrate I will have to remove my live plants....

Does anyone else have any opinions on substrates? I was told it was alright and the recommended types...

Click to expand...

They are tree dwelling animals eating bugs they find there. Sure they may venture down but not often, they stay high in the tree to avoid predators. You can still put plants in your viv without substrate. Put them in pots with organic soil. You may want to cover the dirt with small stones if you can because veilds are notorious dirt eaters. I have all my pots full of rocks because my adult male will eat the pot dry. Anyone selling substrate will tell you it's ok, cuz the manufacturer says so. unless you have a substrate that is water soluble it poses a high risk for impaction. Chams can get impacted from feeding too many feeders with hard exoskeletons such as superworms. The majority of the keepers here will tell you not to use it. I'm sure there are some that are successful with it, but a lot of us feel it's too big of a risk. It's up to you.

Please do not read my post if your intentions are to be rude and demeaning, Thank you.
I am sorry I am stubborn and mis word things, I guess that is the legal training in me, ha. Anyways, I want to find good supplements not medicines, but something to add, obviously whatever they are giving is not enough for a baby, and I would rather be safe than sorry. I can not handle the pain of hurting an innocent baby.

FroggtheCham said:

They are tree dwelling animals eating bugs they find there. Sure they may venture down but not often, they stay high in the tree to avoid predators. You can still put plants in your viv without substrate. Put them in pots with organic soil. You may want to cover the dirt with small stones if you can because veilds are notorious dirt eaters. I have all my pots full of rocks because my adult male will eat the pot dry. Anyone selling substrate will tell you it's ok, cuz the manufacturer says so. unless you have a substrate that is water soluble it poses a high risk for impaction. Chams can get impacted from feeding too many feeders with hard exoskeletons such as superworms. The majority of the keepers here will tell you not to use it. I'm sure there are some that are successful with it, but a lot of us feel it's too big of a risk. It's up to you.

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Thank you. I guess I am used to my previous girl, she would not go near the bottom of the tank, to eat she hung upside down and ate from her bowl or waited for them to climb to her. I will have to figure out an alternative to a pot, I am nervous about having a pot in the tank. I am now considering taking all of live plants out until the new tank is built. I will make a faux floor and have the pots below it if that makes sense. I just liked the substrate also since mine was egg laying age. That way I didn't have to move her and worry about not catching her ready to lay signs....

JenniferAlicia said:

I will have to figure out an alternative to a pot, I am nervous about having a pot in the tank. I am now considering taking all of live plants out until the new tank is built. I will make a faux floor and have the pots below it if that makes sense. I just liked the substrate also since mine was egg laying age. That way I didn't have to move her and worry about not catching her ready to lay signs....

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Do not worry about having pots in the cage, you can cover the soil with river rocks (smooth), but nothing small enough to be ingested.

As for egg laying - all you need is a laying bin, not the whole cage to be filled with substrate. I've never had a female so I don't know the whole process, though.

You say she was egg laying age when she was only 3.5 - 4.5 months old? Or am I reading that wrong?

JenniferAlicia said:

So this will be my second veiled, my first one was about 3.5 - 4.5 months old[...]

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Supplements to use:
repcal calcium w/o d3 or phosphorus
repcal w/ D3
Herptivite

schedule for a veiled chameleon
Calcium w/o d3 every feeding (adults are fed every other day)
Calcium w D3 twice a month
Multivitamin once a month.

It is also suggested to take your chameleon outside if it is warm enough for some natural UVB from the sun. You can really see an improvement in your chameleon if you do this and they enjoy it very much.

Also, baby veiled chameleons need to have a basking spot of low 80's so they don't cook. They also need a good temperature gradient so they can cool down. At night, they also need to have a slight drop in temps, around high 60's.

Syn said:

Do not worry about having pots in the cage, you can cover the soil with river rocks (smooth), but nothing small enough to be ingested.

As for egg laying - all you need is a laying bin, not the whole cage to be filled with substrate. I've never had a female so I don't know the whole process, though.

You say she was egg laying age when she was only 3.5 - 4.5 months old? Or am I reading that wrong?

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Yes, the lady who purchased her sister already laid eggs. So I am assuming she could have been ready also

justjumpit621 said:

Supplements to use:
repcal calcium w/o d3 or phosphorus
repcal w/ D3
Herptivite

schedule for a veiled chameleon
Calcium w/o d3 every feeding (adults are fed every other day)
Calcium w D3 twice a month
Multivitamin once a month.

It is also suggested to take your chameleon outside if it is warm enough for some natural UVB from the sun. You can really see an improvement in your chameleon if you do this and they enjoy it very much.

Click to expand...

Thank you! I do try to take my chameleon outside as much as I can, it has just been so hot here usually when we go out we only stay out for maybe 15 mins to an hour just depending on what I have to do and the temp... I have three very small fruit trees that are a favorite spot to perch when we are outside and there is not chance of getting away, there is nothing near the trees and I sit right next to it and do not take my eyes off.

JenniferAlicia said:

Thank you! I do try to take my chameleon outside as much as I can, it has just been so hot here usually when we go out we only stay out for maybe 15 mins to an hour just depending on what I have to do and the temp... I have three very small fruit trees that are a favorite spot to perch when we are outside and there is not chance of getting away, there is nothing near the trees and I sit right next to it and do not take my eyes off.

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I edited more to the bottom of my post also, just to let you know so you don't miss it.

If your chameleon died after 3 weeks, and if it was MBD the symptoms would have been obvious and it would have had the disease for quite one time. Did the animal have crooked limbs? You will actually find pretty consistent advice on this forum. No substrate is best, temps for a 2-4 month olds in the low to mid 80's, proper uvb that is not obstructed by glass or plastic and changed out every 6-9 months, and proper supplementation is key. Veileds do best in screen cages of good size. It never hurts to check your husbandry, especially when just starting out.

Julirs said:

If your chameleon died after 3 weeks, and if it was MBD the symptoms would have been obvious and it would have had the disease for quite one time. Did the animal have crooked limbs? You will actually find pretty consistent advice on this forum. No substrate is best, temps for a 2-4 month olds in the low to mid 80's, proper uvb that is not obstructed by glass or plastic and changed out every 6-9 months, and proper supplementation is key. Veileds do best in screen cages of good size. It never hurts to check your husbandry, especially when just starting out.

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Agreed. It is too easy for them to become impacted, especially babies. I use potted plants and fake plants and they work great. It is also easier to clean the floor adn you don't have to worry about fungus as much.

When I brought the previous girl home she looked great. After about a week she was acting a little odd, but I thought it was her personality coming out... What I mean by weird is using her leg to grip her side, a bit clumsy but I thought that was a baby thing, and she would move her tail super fast... So about a week later I noticed a curve in her spine. I also noticed she wasnt eating as much because she was having a hard time getting around unless I brought the food to her or her to the food, but from there on out it progressed I tried vitamin drops that were for MBD but no success, on the first day of week three I contacted the store and the agreed something was wrong no fault of my own, I brought her set up it was inspected by their on staff herp and it checked out great, they were impressed. So they have had her since Saturday waiting for her vet appt which was supposed to be tomorrow morning but sadly she passed.

JenniferAlicia said:

When I brought the previous girl home she looked great. After about a week she was acting a little odd, but I thought it was her personality coming out... What I mean by weird is using her leg to grip her side, a bit clumsy but I thought that was a baby thing, and she would move her tail super fast... So about a week later I noticed a curve in her spine. I also noticed she wasnt eating as much because she was having a hard time getting around unless I brought the food to her or her to the food, but from there on out it progressed I tried vitamin drops that were for MBD but no success, on the first day of week three I contacted the store and the agreed something was wrong no fault of my own, I brought her set up it was inspected by their on staff herp and it checked out great, they were impressed. So they have had her since Saturday waiting for her vet appt which was supposed to be tomorrow morning but sadly she passed.

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By the sounds of it I say it was neurological. Do you have any pictures? You should probably get your next chameleon from one of our sponsors to be on the safe side. They all take great care of their chameleons and have some very nice and healthy ones. I believe most of them have a quality guarantee too...

JenniferAlicia said:

When I brought the previous girl home she looked great. After about a week she was acting a little odd, but I thought it was her personality coming out... What I mean by weird is using her leg to grip her side, a bit clumsy but I thought that was a baby thing, and she would move her tail super fast... So about a week later I noticed a curve in her spine. I also noticed she wasnt eating as much because she was having a hard time getting around unless I brought the food to her or her to the food, but from there on out it progressed I tried vitamin drops that were for MBD but no success, on the first day of week three I contacted the store and the agreed something was wrong no fault of my own, I brought her set up it was inspected by their on staff herp and it checked out great, they were impressed. So they have had her since Saturday waiting for her vet appt which was supposed to be tomorrow morning but sadly she passed.

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You are describing classic signs of mbd. She should have gone to the vet on week one for a calcium booster injection, but would not have guaranteed it would save her. Knowing how to spot a healthy chamber is important. I am thinking your herp store is less than experienced with chameleon.

They have a herp on staff??? I wonder if they pay him in crickets lol sorry just had to say it