3 month vieled died.. addvice for next time

[wdissident]

i had a vieled chameleon i had for not even 2 months. the past week he had his eyes closed all day and today i watched him fall off a leaf and then would just lay there with his eyes closed and mouth open. now what did i do wrong? was his mouth being open a sign of respiratory problems? or was it over heating the basking spot was only 90 degrees.

 

[Solid Snake]

Im sorry to hear that.
Could be a number of things.
You could fill out the how to ask for help form, and maybe that could shed some light on the issue.

Here is the form:

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Location - Where are you geographically located?


Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.


Pictures are helpful

 

[Zen Reptiles]

90 as a maximum point? or 90 as the only basking option? That is a fine temperature so long as they can bask at 85 and 80 as well. IMO those are the 3 magic numbers for basking points.

We can give more advice once you fill out the questionnaire.

 

[wdissident]

Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
vieled 3-4 months had for 2 months. male
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?one a week
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?

only fed superworms.
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
kept uperworms in dust cup
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
have a reptifogger and mist 2 times a day
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
poop looked white and black. the day he died his poop was yellow/black
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
screen cage
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
25 watt house bulb for beating. 5.0 uvb from zoomed
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
basking tmep around 90. normal temp around 75
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
money tree
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
next to my computer desk which is also next to my tv and a window..
Location - Where are you geographically located? southern california

 

[BeBoSON]

I would say your cham died from malnutrition. You can't only feed Superworms. They don't hold much nutritional value. You need a staple feeder, aka crickets, dubia...etc. Something that can be gutloaded.

 

[James45]

Is there any noticeable bite marks on the leaves on the Money tree ? cause they are Toxic to most animals and he may of poisoned himself from eating the leaves. Veileds are knows for eating plants.

 

[wdissident]

i watched him eat a piece of the leaf. i read alot and heard the plants not toxic, or not toxic enough to hurt him and how rnt superworms gutlaodable? i fed them carrots and squash. that should of got enough calcium for him.

 

[EvilLost]

Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
vieled 3-4 months had for 2 months. male
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?one a week
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?

only fed superworms. superworms are not nutritious and can not be his sole diet. they are too high in fat...feed with crickets or roaches as a staple
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
kept uperworms in dust cup "dust cup"? what is that? you need to have a calcium supp (every feeding), calc+d3 (2x a month), and multivitamin (2x a month)
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
have a reptifogger and mist 2 times a day
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
poop looked white and black. the day he died his poop was yellow/black
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
screen cage what size?
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
25 watt house bulb for beating. 5.0 uvb from zoomed
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
basking tmep around 90. normal temp around 75
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? you didn't answer this i'm guessing you never measured it..
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
money tree just 1? what size/kind? other foliage/fake leaves/vines in the cage?
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
next to my computer desk which is also next to my tv and a window..
Location - Where are you geographically located? southern california

His diet and supplements are seemingly poor.

You said there was 1 money tree....what about other foliage/etc? A picture would be needed to determine better. Like another poster said, did he have access to a GRADIENT?

I'm imagining the top of the money tree as being 90, the bottom as being 75, and nothing else in the cage. If that is the case, then there is a lot wrong there.

 

[wdissident]

whats gradient? and the money tree was with some vines and a couple branches

 

[James45]

Is there any noticeable bite marks on the leaves on the Money tree ? cause they are Toxic to most animals and he may of poisoned himself from eating the leaves. Veileds are knows for eating plants.

Ok i just did some more research on the money tree and i am finding conflicting information on its Toxicity so i may be wrong on accidental poisoning but not ruling it out just yet.

 

[lindstedt56]

whats gradient? and the money tree was with some vines and a couple branches

Providing a temp gradient gives your chameleon the choice to be in different temp zones. Example: A hot zone (basking area), Warm Zone, Cool zone. If your whole cage was hot and did not have a place to cool down...

Superworms are not staple feeders you needed to feed more variety. Also, you need to supplement with calcium with d3/ calcium w/o d3, and a multivitamin. I am not the most experienced but i do not think feeding superworms for 2 months killed your chameleon.

Sorry your Chameleon passed

 

[wdissident]

yes theres gradient temps. i will get a ficus this time and feed both crickets and superworms and dubais.

 

[Elizadolots]

Hi, I'm so sorry your first chameleon died. I'm glad you're willing to get back on the horse as it were....

I believe you can gutload supers and that they can be acceptable as a staple as long as they are not the only staple.

I think your chameleon was not properly hydrated. I don't think that's what caused him to die, but as you are looking to have better success with the next one, that's what I think. I think you need to establish a dripper so there is water dripping onto leaves most of the day. I don't know how long you mist, but when you do I think it should be a rainfall...make the cage drip. Some chameleons need a good rainfall to convince them it's okay to drink.

Please know that you bought this chameleon when it possibly too young to be on the market. While there are no laws about it, I think no chameleon under 3 months old should be sold to anyone other than a known breeder. Babies are just too fragile to stand up to the learning curve that is "I just got a chameleon!". That's really the fault of the people who sold it to you.

For your next chameleon, make sure you buy from a reputable breeder (check the board sponsors or the classifieds here to see what members have) and do not buy any chameleon under 3 months old.

 

[Goldenarcher1328]

Terribly sorry for your loss. My deepest condolences. It sounds to me at the minimum, after briefly looking over your caretaking, and not being an expert. it sounds like the poor lil feller wasn't being fed correctly, don't forget proper drinking habits as well ( not saying thats the exact cause or anything but it certainly couldnt have helped the little one) . my veil eats crickets, Dubia roaches, Superworms ( 1 every few days) and veggies ( every day, grazing off and on) as his typical diet. Other things such as phoenix worms and other insect feeders are rotated in and out of the diet.

In my opinion, the best way to look at it is like this.

Lets say your favorite food is Chicken. You eat it in the morning, at lunch, and at dinner.

You eat this way each and every day. While you may be getting filled up, all you are receiving is a constant supply of the nutrients in the chicken. You slowly begin to run out of vitamins and nutrients not found in the chicken and become sick because all you are getting is from that one, constant food.

Yes this is why we have dusts and supplements. However, i feel that this is no substitution for a varied diet.

Try to switch up the foods slightly every now and then as well as using a well rounded base feeder.

 

[wdissident]

I bought it off the guy from chameleonsfinest.com

 

[Elizadolots]

Yet, my dogs eat the same food every single day and all the advice is to not vary that. The advice is, if I need to make a change, to do it gradually by mixing old and new food together....

I honestly do not buy the "you must use a wide variety of feeders" thing...I get that it's the BEST thing to do, but there's a HUGE expanse between "best" and "not good" and feeding one insect, well gut loaded, falls into that range.

While I, personally, regard superworms as instruments of the devil and beings capable of devouring my soul* I know that they are pretty good as staple feeders go. I've had some pretty respected members berate me for my aversion to them.

*(okay...I might have over stated that, but I really am terrified by them...the fact that every time I've seen one it reared up and waved its body at me did nothing to remove that fear)

 

[Goldenarcher1328]

Yet, my dogs eat the same food every single day and all the advice is to not vary that. The advice is, if I need to make a change, to do it gradually by mixing old and new food together....

I honestly do not buy the "you must use a wide variety of feeders" thing...I get that it's the BEST thing to do, but there's a HUGE expanse between "best" and "not good" and feeding one insect, well gut loaded, falls into that range.

While I, personally, regard superworms as instruments of the devil and beings capable of devouring my soul* I know that they are pretty good as staple feeders go. I've had some pretty respected members berate me for my aversion to them.

*(okay...I might have over stated that, but I really am terrified by them...the fact that every time I've seen one it reared up and waved its body at me did nothing to remove that fear)

Hmm.. While i completely agree with that as far as cats and dogs go, i have never had any luck with a single dietary staple with any of the other animals i have raised, i have always had more healthy and vigorous animals when fed a wide variety.

Anywho its just a personal opinion, as i stated i am no expert, its just the pattern i have seen so far in my experiences. You do have a valid point however on how switching foods with dogs will lead to upset digestive systems.

come to think of it, the two things are not all too different. A constantly varied diet, would act as a normality in their dietary schedule would it not? Therefore switching an animal from a varied diet to a constant diet would have the same effects as rapidly switching the diet of an animal who is used to one food type. Just a theory. Now i am intrigued and have to look into this further!

haha Oh dear, i've started in again on one of my curious tangents which will inevitably lead to less sleep and more time spent in front of the computer and books researching haha

 

[lslcronk]

Yet, my dogs eat the same food every single day and all the advice is to not vary that. The advice is, if I need to make a change, to do it gradually by mixing old and new food together....

I honestly do not buy the "you must use a wide variety of feeders" thing...I get that it's the BEST thing to do, but there's a HUGE expanse between "best" and "not good" and feeding one insect, well gut loaded, falls into that range.

While I, personally, regard superworms as instruments of the devil and beings capable of devouring my soul* I know that they are pretty good as staple feeders go. I've had some pretty respected members berate me for my aversion to them.

*(okay...I might have over stated that, but I really am terrified by them...the fact that every time I've seen one it reared up and waved its body at me did nothing to remove that fear)

The difference with dog and cat food is that IF you are feeding a more quality food than "Ol Roy" or "Country Fare" or any other cheap, store brand food you can think of...examples of quality store bought foods being Eukanuba, Iams, Purina...these NATIONAL brands have to go through AAFCO quality control to contain the vitamins and minerals a dog or cat needs to be healthy and in the proper quantities. Then you get into the SUPER "nutritious" brands Fromm, Tast of the Wild etc that are using more whole ingredients but ALSO provide BALANCED nutrition for a dog or cat. If you told ppl they would have to go out and kill chickens and cattle to prepare thier own dog food, then mix in supplements and vitamins at a proper ratio NO ONE would own a dog. This is why chameleon owners are significantly more rare than dog and cat owners. When you get a cham the goal is to provide it the most natural existance we can, this is why we build jungles in our homes and try our best to creat tropical humidity and temps in our basements, bedrooms and backyards...this attention to detail should not falter at nutrition...in the jungle I am sure the chameleon eats more than 1 type of bug and I am sure the bugs eat more than carrots and squash. We are trying to provide simulated jungle nutrition to these animals - to the OP please look up Sandrachameleon, one of the members here, she has many threads/blogs on nutrition and gutloading. Also research supplements and vitamins BEFORE getting another cham. From what I can see those 2 things were the biggest issues aside from just feeding superworms.

 

[Elizadolots]

It's a little outdated as a reference, but, here's an interview with Jim Flaherty (http://www.chameleonnews.com/06SepDescampsFlaherty.html

How do you manage feeding and nutrition for a collection that size?
We are 95% crickets, most of which we raise ourselves, and the rest super worms.

He's not a bad resource....

But, good gutloading is critical and Sandrachameleon's blog is the first place anyone should go when getting started on gutloading.

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