4-3-09 Vet Visit

[Docility]

So i went to the only vet in the area that looks at Chameleons, and i waited, and waited. she finally saw him, and i brought all my supplements with me she looked at them and said i dont like this calcium supplement, because it has D3 in it. !!! i was like what!!! they have to have that to live!!! then she went on to saying that since my UVB bulb brand wasnt on some crazy list so i had to get a zoomed one, because mine doesn't really produce uvb!? the only helpful thing she said is that he might have hypocalcemia due to his odd nod/twitch he would do every so often. he is actually looking around on his own/ moving a day after i gave him the Vitamin A. she didnt run any tests, and wanted me to bring him back in a week, and if he isnt eating to call he so she can tell me how to force feed him..... they used a light to illuminate his insides, and didnt see anything from that either. after all of that shes trying to tell me hes dehydrated as well, and said misting isnt a good option that i should only drip water!? his urates are white his eyes are not sunken. he has no abnormal wrinkles, or folds, and he appears healthy. Only good advice which wasnt all that great was that i can use "tums" as Calcium powder which i have started doing since it has such a high concentration. make sure you get the off brand, because Tums its self uses phosphates. Honestly she has no clue! im not wasting 56$ at that place ever again!!! Guardian Animal Hospital in Summit , KY


(also i have feed him 4 waxworms, and 4 crickets today. i had to put them in his mouth, because he still is not hungry. with his condition appearing to be better other than the "hunger strike" hes doing. do i need to do anything else? or just let him be?

please any information would be very helpful!!!!!

 

[Syn]

What an idiot. That doesn't sound like an "exotics specialist". Did you go to a dog-cat hospital?

edit: then again yeah, I agree with Chamelisa, sounds like you may have misunderstood her

 

[chamelisa]

I know you're frustrated, but please don't bash a vet for telling you what she is seeing in your chameleon. What she told you doesn't sound like anything too uncommon.

It was good that you went there. But please, have some confidence that she might know what she's talking about. Or maybe even a little bit. It's possible that either of you didn't understand each other and may have taken some information out of context... or maybe because she doesn't see exactly how you keep your chameleon, she can't pinpoint what is wrong in your husbandry to correct the issues.

Vets see so many dying and deformed chameleons. Many on a daily basis. It's very sad.

For whatever it's worth, I don't use D3 but my chameleons get natural sunlight.

If she said he was dehydrated, did she suggest giving him fluids or feeding him Pedialyte through a pipette?

So i went to the only vet in the area that looks at Chameleons, and i waited, and waited. she finally saw him, and i brought all my supplements with me she looked at them and said i dont like this calcium supplement, because it has D3 in it. !!! i was like what!!! they have to have that to live!!! then she went on to saying that since my UVB bulb brand wasnt on some crazy list so i had to get a zoomed one, because mine doesn't really produce uvb!? the only helpful thing she said is that he might have hypocalcemia due to his odd nod/twitch he would do every so often. he is actually looking around on his own/ moving a day after i gave him the Vitamin A. she didnt run any tests, and wanted me to bring him back in a week, and if he isnt eating to call he so she can tell me how to force feed him..... they used a light to illuminate his insides, and didnt see anything from that either. after all of that shes trying to tell me hes dehydrated as well, and said misting isnt a good option that i should only drip water!? his urates are white his eyes are not sunken. he has no abnormal wrinkles, or folds, and he appears healthy. Only good advice which wasnt all that great was that i can use "tums" as Calcium powder which i have started doing since it has such a high concentration. make sure you get the off brand, because Tums its self uses phosphates. Honestly she has no clue! im not wasting 56$ at that place ever again!!! Guardian Animal Hospital in Summit , KY


(also i have feed him 4 waxworms, and 4 crickets today. i had to put them in his mouth, because he still is not hungry. with his condition appearing to be better other than the "hunger strike" hes doing. do i need to do anything else? or just let him be?

please any information would be very helpful!!!!!

 

[Docility]

the big thing being HE IS NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE, OR FORM DEHYDRATED! thats the thing that pissed me off. he doesn't have a single symptom of it, and telling me that my UVB light is unacceptable, because its not of a specific brand is just ludacris. these are the same people that i just found out misdiagnose multiple pets! they sent a couple that bought a dog from us at work back saying it didnt have a micro chip in it, and i got my scanner, and duh it had one. its a regular avid chip, but thats an other thing in its self. she didnt look at a stool sample or anything, no blood work ect, and just started going off on my worthless UVB bulb, because its a Zilla brand!? saying it has caused hypocalcemia.

she said to soak him for 20 min a day? she didn not specify what she ment, and said this would allow his body to absorb the water he needed, and i think i read somewhere before that they cant do this efficient enough to even amount to anything. hes appearing to do better, and have been moving about the cage today after me giving him the Vitamin A a day or so ago.

i normally have a good deal of respect for people, but this was a tad absurd to me...

chamelisa no disrespect to you, or your comment though. i just felt like this place was a joke compared to other vets. (this is mainly a cat/dog/bird place) they just see reptiles.

she didnt even try to pick him up correctly she just lunged in and snatched him out =(

 

[Docility]

What an idiot. That doesn't sound like an "exotics specialist". Did you go to a dog-cat hospital?

edit: then again yeah, I agree with Chamelisa, sounds like you may have misunderstood her

unless she cant convey speech at all then there isnt a way i could have. i always triple check what im being told, and ask who what when where, and why. it pisses a lot of people off, but im making sure im getting the correct wordage.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I have to say that most of her advice seems sound to me.
I would definitely choose no D3 over too much (maybe once or twice a month here as insurance, and a VERY small amount).
I would not buy a zilla light. Zoomed is absolutely the best choice.
I also think a dripper is a better way to offer water.

Sorry, but based on what you have said ... your vet sounds okay to me.

-Brad

 

[Docility]

I have to say that most of her advice seems sound to me.
I would definitely choose no D3 over too much (maybe once or twice a month here as insurance, and a VERY small amount).
I would not buy a zilla light. Zoomed is absolutely the best choice.
I also think a dripper is a better way to offer water.

Sorry, but based on what you have said ... your vet sounds okay to me.

-Brad

why is zoo med a better choice they have the same output?
chameleons NEED D3 in order to metabolize Ca
hes runs from the dripper i dont know why.

i state i am upset with they way they handled this, and have received much better vet care at other places, but unfortunantly i no longer live there.

im going to take him to my university if the problem persists, and let our herpetologist professor look at him.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

why is zoo med a better choice they have the same output?
chameleons NEED D3 in order to metabolize Ca
hes runs from the dripper i dont know why.

D3 is manufactured by the animal if provided proper UVB exposure.

There is a ton of information available showing a huge disparity in the "output" of different brand of lights. They are NOT the same.

Chameleons need an opportunity to become accustomed to things like a dripper. How long did you try it for?

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I think you are being unfair to a vet who appears to know about chameleons.

-Brad

 

[chamelisa]

Docility,

I have a panther rehab right now that is approximately 9 months old and was purchased with another as a pair. It received the same care as the other except that this one has a severe case of MBD. The one I ended up with was supposed to be the female, but it is actually a male. So we can't blame reproductive issues such as egg development.

My point is that one chameleon may do well under a set of circumstances yet another will deteriorate. The one thing that I have seen though is that these problems that cause deformity are never caused by exposure to natural sunlight. They are all from environments with artificial lighting only. And we are learning that these lights are not always putting out the proper amounts of UVB.

So if your chameleon never gets exposure to natural sunlight, then you will need to supplement with D3. But whenever you can, and when weather permits, please get that chameleon out in the sunshine. You will notice a lot of improvements.

I don't know if I said this already... maybe I deleted that post. But dehydration will interfere with a chameleon's appetite. Don't worry about your chameleon running away from a dripper. Follow him with it until he stops. Eventually the little bugger has to drink. Some can be so skittish with hand misters or drippers. You just have to find what makes him drink the most.

I hope this helps. Be thankful you didn't have to go to a vet who has only seen cattle. At the very least, maybe use this vet to run fecals for you if you don't do your own.

 

[Docility]

D3 is manufactured by the animal if provided proper UVB exposure.

There is a ton of information available showing a huge disparity in the "output" of different brand of lights. They are NOT the same.

Chameleons need an opportunity to become accustomed to things like a dripper. How long did you try it for?

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I think you are being unfair to a vet who appears to know about chameleons.

-Brad

the out put is at 25 micro watts per @ 18" between 280-320.

she kept comparing him to an iguana, and they have 2 completely different exposure levels, and life styles/requirements.

i still run the dripper in hopes he might drink out of it, but i never see him do it. i think hes honestly scared of water. i just got aggravated that she kept saying my bulb would not produce uvb, and i tested it with a solar meter i borrowed from school at 18" it was reading 20 microwatts of uvb, and that was with the screen, and after the the burn in process. i have since then added aluminum foil, and placed it in a better spot upon the cage. with full photo regulation available he does great

the fact she refused to elaborate on anything really ticked me off. i paid 55$ for her to grab him, and smash his eye down. chameleons are rare in this area, and she just takes a special interest in them. i wish i had a real herpetologist here, but there just isnt the demand. ill take him to school, and let the herp vet instructor at school if he doesn't get better

 

[Docility]

Docility,

I have a panther rehab right now that is approximately 9 months old and was purchased with another as a pair. It received the same care as the other except that this one has a severe case of MBD. The one I ended up with was supposed to be the female, but it is actually a male. So we can't blame reproductive issues such as egg development.

My point is that one chameleon may do well under a set of circumstances yet another will deteriorate. The one thing that I have seen though is that these problems that cause deformity are never caused by exposure to natural sunlight. They are all from environments with artificial lighting only. And we are learning that these lights are not always putting out the proper amounts of UVB.

So if your chameleon never gets exposure to natural sunlight, then you will need to supplement with D3. But whenever you can, and when weather permits, please get that chameleon out in the sunshine. You will notice a lot of improvements.

I don't know if I said this already... maybe I deleted that post. But dehydration will interfere with a chameleon's appetite. Don't worry about your chameleon running away from a dripper. Follow him with it until he stops. Eventually the little bugger has to drink. Some can be so skittish with hand misters or drippers. You just have to find what makes him drink the most.

I hope this helps. Be thankful you didn't have to go to a vet who has only seen cattle. At the very least, maybe use this vet to run fecals for you if you don't do your own.

i would do my own if i had a microscope. i have taken so many anatomy/ chem classes it really make me mad when a type of MD/Vet belittles my input because im young, and live in an areas full of stupid people. Thats not to say some people actually car about their animals, and do research as much as they can. the quality of service was horrendous. i felt like i was going to mcdonalds, and being charged for redlobster. shes mainly concerned about repeat business , and their costs are crazy in order to have blood work done its 20$, but the dont run the blood work immediately, and call you back in after a day or so, and they not only charge you 50$ a visit, but a 65$ chart lookup fee to get your results!? a fecal will cost me 40$, and its just not worth it at all. i hate to say it, but if i was at a place that honestly cared then i would pay some money, but they would do all of this at the same time anyway. i feel vets dont treat animals as direct as they need to be. if i went into a hospital with these symptoms they wouldnt rest until the knew what it was, but i just dont get the same commitment from vets in this area. =(

 

[ScaredyCatAsh]

question totally off the vet topic but cuz it was mentioned i feel like im over doing the D3 dusting. So how many times a week do u dust with a calcium w/d3? i do it like... 4 days out of the week........ and a vitamin powder once a week... thankfully i havent had my chams long but im not sure of the proper dusting I have heard so many different things(not from this forum)

 

[Julirs]

Docility-you have an auto-mister-right? ((I was reading through all of your past threads to see if I could find anything. )) I do not drip anyone here, I only hand mist, so I am not sure where your Vet thought dripping would be BETTER than misting, especially with an auto-mister. Do you have any recent pics-I thought your cham might look a little dehydrated in some you posted a while back-but the pics were fuzzy.
Please don't "help" anyone shed-I imagine picking off the skin-that can cause them pain and infection.
I read you are gutloading with leafy greens-just making sure you are NOT using spinach here.
In an earlier thread you said this was your supplements schedule: Zoomed Ca with D3/ Tetrafuna Multi Vitamin (cant find straight Ca so waiting on it to get here)
what is the schedule? 1 week of D3 ( around 12-18 light dusted) 2 weeks of Vitamin Suppliment (no preformed Vit A just beteacarotene i also rotate the weeks)
You are using way too much D3-calcium with D3 should be used maybe 2-3X monthly at this age. You should be uing the calcium without D3 for most of the feedings, and dust VERY lightly. Then you are dusting everyday for 2 weeks with Vitamins? Whoa-way too much-A good Vitamin/Mineral Supplement should be used 1-2X monthly at this age. A schedule should look something like this: Dust lightly one feeding daily using calcium without D3 6X weekly. 2X monthly use calcium with D3 instead. 2X monthly use Herptivite/Reptivite. I give all of my guys one day off of supps per week. I am suspecting that you have really possibly caused some issues with your supplements. I am also a little worried about the Vit A-and the doseage and the way it was administered.
As far as your UVB light, it is probably OK-just not as good as the Zoomed Reptisuns. Glad you took him to the Vet-her advice was not as bad as some we have seen, but I also question some of her advice. Again-please post some current clear pics.

 

[summoner12]

i just got aggravated that she kept saying my bulb would not produce uvb, and i tested it with a solar meter i borrowed from school at 18" it was reading 20 microwatts of uvb, and that was with the screen, and after the the burn in process.

What kind/brand of meter? What brand of light are you using?

I don't think you need to bash a Vet. I agree with what people have said here. It sounds like she gave you some good advice.

Oh and the Zoo Med lamp is the best. I would NEVER use a Zilla Product.....

 

[Docility]

What kind/brand of meter? What brand of light are you using?
I would NEVER use a Zilla Product.....

i dont know it was from the university? it was used to measure MW's of uvb radiation.

why would you never use a zilla product?

im just curious as to why people are so anal about this when the readings are not so far off

 

[chamelisa]

question totally off the vet topic but cuz it was mentioned i feel like im over doing the D3 dusting. So how many times a week do u dust with a calcium w/d3? i do it like... 4 days out of the week........ and a vitamin powder once a week... thankfully i havent had my chams long but im not sure of the proper dusting I have heard so many different things(not from this forum)

Just a quick reply to you ScaredyCatAsh: Probably better to start a new thread. Or search all of the D3 threads.

 

[Docility]

Docility-you have an auto-mister-right? ((I was reading through all of your past threads to see if I could find anything. )) I do not drip anyone here, I only hand mist, so I am not sure where your Vet thought dripping would be BETTER than misting, especially with an auto-mister. Do you have any recent pics-I thought your cham might look a little dehydrated in some you posted a while back-but the pics were fuzzy.
Please don't "help" anyone shed-I imagine picking off the skin-that can cause them pain and infection.
I read you are gutloading with leafy greens-just making sure you are NOT using spinach here.
In an earlier thread you said this was your supplements schedule: Zoomed Ca with D3/ Tetrafuna Multi Vitamin (cant find straight Ca so waiting on it to get here)
what is the schedule? 1 week of D3 ( around 12-18 light dusted) 2 weeks of Vitamin Suppliment (no preformed Vit A just beteacarotene i also rotate the weeks)
You are using way too much D3-calcium with D3 should be used maybe 2-3X monthly at this age. You should be uing the calcium without D3 for most of the feedings, and dust VERY lightly. Then you are dusting everyday for 2 weeks with Vitamins? Whoa-way too much-A good Vitamin/Mineral Supplement should be used 1-2X monthly at this age. A schedule should look something like this: Dust lightly one feeding daily using calcium without D3 6X weekly. 2X monthly use calcium with D3 instead. 2X monthly use Herptivite/Reptivite. I give all of my guys one day off of supps per week. I am suspecting that you have really possibly caused some issues with your supplements. I am also a little worried about the Vit A-and the doseage and the way it was administered.
As far as your UVB light, it is probably OK-just not as good as the Zoomed Reptisuns. Glad you took him to the Vet-her advice was not as bad as some we have seen, but I also question some of her advice. Again-please post some current clear pics.

i would love to post clearer pics, but the only camera i have is from my phone, and i cant borrow one, because i dont know anyone that has one.

i was using kel not spinach

when i say week i mean i do like12 dusted over week not every time i feed. Also the Vitamin supplement i have sucks and does not contain preformed Vitamin A. i am actually going to cut the vitamin out since this kinda started around the same time i introduced it. i dunno what happened to my Ca powder, but she told me to use Tums and i have, but not name brand since it contains phosphates. i only dust his crickets with supplements his other stuff i put in is clean from this mainly because it kills worms for some reason.

Also not that his eyes will appear a little sunken, because he has them pulled in when they are closed, but when he opens them they are nice, and bulbous. 5000iu of A is what i found to be a jump start for a depleted system, and i do not intend on doing any Preformed A supplementation for like 6 months due to that possibility of overdosing.

did i miss anything?

even though i did not like anything about that place i would take him back, but i do not have 300$ to do it with. they offer no payment plans, or anything to help out it has to all be paid at time of exam. so it will be impossible to pay that much for a fecal/blood test, and worming.

my next question is does anyone do their own worming? what do you use, and how much?

 

[Julirs]

The TUMS thing scares me. Why would anyone do that with all the readily available tried and true supplements out there?

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy Ben,

I'd say that he's now all "tanked-up" on vitamin A and won't need anymore, for months, if ever.

Your ZooMed Ca/D3 is probably ok to use once a week. Can you tell me the D3 content listed on the label? I couldn't easily find that info online . Ca/D3 levels can vary, product-to-product, by almost 100x. Getting a non-D3 product to use several times a week (also only lightly coated) would also be reasonable. Hypocalcemia is a possibility. When a chameleon’s internal calcium levels are very low, their muscle/nervous systems can cause them to twitch and to scrape their face/eyes with their feet. I didn't see you describing anything more than rubbing his eye on objects which doesn't sound like the dangerously low level calcium symptoms.

Producing white urates is a good thing. You can probably skip any misting after about 3pm unless your humidity is really low (<30%). I prefer to let him be not wet as he heads into the evening hours. I also prefer to mist once in the morning and once in the early afternoon. I like to have each session run for about 15-20 minutes to give him an opportunity to trigger his drinking process. Warm water helps to keep them from getting upset with getting wet. The MistKing pump is a good choice. Just as a note, you can also adjust the pressure to a lower setting in order to reduce the volume of water used. There is a tiny Allen head set screw on the front of the pump. You can turn it counter-clockwise about 1-2-3 turns to reduce the pressure yet still produce a nice flow of misty-splattery water. Don't turn it CW from where it is set by the factory. You don't need to increase the pressure.

Regarding the eye closure symptom:

#1) In an attempt to eliminate the possibility of debris in his eye(s), try using a pump-up mist bottle like the $7 ones at Home Depot (not the squirt-squirt trigger bottle). Using warm water; work your way up to continuously misting his body, especially his eyes/face, in order to be sure that he's had a chance to rinse-out anything that might possibly be bothering his eyes. You can kind-a sneak-up on him, little by little, getting more of him wet until you are literally giving him a full-body shower. Continue to do this until he has been swishing his eyeballs from the wetness. This may take several minutes of misting his eyes. That will let you cross that issue off the list.

#2) I vaguely remember you mentioning how many months (remind me again) you've been using the R-Zilla UVB light source in a previous post somewhere. But in order to eliminate it as a possibility of eye issues etc, I'd suggest that you just turn it off for 1-2-3 days. Doing without that UVB source for only that long should not create a problem and would go a long way towards eliminating your R-Zilla UVB tube as a problem source. You may recall my concerns about the R-Zilla UVB sources as having a BIG problem, acknowledged by their researchers, and have essentially been pulled from the market while being replaced by updated versions. Even though you may have the updated version, I'm still very concerned and I really encourage you to turn it off for several days and watch for any changes. The R-Zilla UVB light source issue goes beyond just how many uW/cm2 of UVB are being produced. Among other things, it has to do with its UV Index being too high. In the past, these lights have been found to be too “biologically active”. The final independent test results (via the people at http://www.uvguide.co.uk/) of R-Zilla’s new products have not been released yet but may be coming out very soon.

By the way, if you want to read more about it, you can search back into posts from many months ago regarding the previous issues with the R-Zilla UVB products. The documented damage that the first release of their products produced is posted, photos and all . Also, there is more info on the R-Zilla situation on: http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm

A short quote from the site:
"At the beginning of September 2007, we first become aware of reptiles being affected by excessive UVB radiation from lamps from the R-Zilla Desert 50 series lamps; we now know of five incidents involving at least another 40 animals (one case involves a large number of bearded dragons owned by a breeder). "

The Tropical Series 25 has issues too.

 

[kinyonga]

Julirs said..."The TUMS thing scares me. Why would anyone do that with all the readily available tried and true supplements out there?"...I have used fruit flavored TUMS for over 8 years with my leopard, Bibrons, etc. and on the greens and veggies I give to the turtles, tortoises, anoles, water dragons, bearded dragons with no problems. Never given them to chameleons though.

Docility said..."chameleons NEED D3 in order to metabolize Ca"....you are right...but getting it from exposure do UVB is less likely to result in an overdose than giving it from supplements. If the chameleon can move into and out of the UVB light then it should be able to regulate the amount of D3 produced...but if you are making it take D3 in supplements, it has no choice.