4 Month old MBD?

[Kaitlyn-Jane]

Hello! Let me start out with this little dude's story. Basically, from my understanding a woman had purchased him when he was a baby. I don't think she nessiceraly knew what she was doing considering she kept him in a glass cabinet , with no UVB. I am also unsure of what his supplementation schedule was if he even had any? I'm pretty sure he has a form of MBD. I just wanted to see what you guys thought. These pictures were taken the day I picked him up and when he was in his enclosure at my home. I know you're supposed to give them an adjustment period but he was in a cricket container way too small so I decided to hold him the ride home. So far he has had the greatest personality and been in the friendliest mood , not once has he puffed up or opened his mouth at me, unless I'm trying to take a photo of him. Really tolerates being handled , it honesty seems like he enjoys it. Anyhoot, here is some of the information I can provide.


Chameleon Information:
( un-named ) - Veild Chameleon , Male , 4 months of age,
(Un-named) - been in my care for one day.
Handling: unsure how much he was handled by the previous owner but he seems like he enjoys/ tolerates it so I'd say a decent amount.
Feeding: I will be feeding him crickets and meal worms, with a variety of allowed fruits and veggies. ( I provided him with 5 crickets this morning , he ate one and then seemed uninterested with the rest. I will be trying meal worms here soon ) The schedule I was thinking of was going to be 5 crickets or meal worms in the morning around 2pm with a small portion of leafy greens and fruit and then another set of 5 crickets or meal worms around 7 pm with a small portion of veggies. The feeder insects are gut loaded with leafy greens and potatoes also joshes frogs premium cricket cuisine.
Supplements: ( Again unsure what was used for the first 4 months of his life ) but I will be using Repti-calcium ( with D3 ) from Zoomed and the Repti-Calcium ( Without D3 ) from Zoomed now for the multivitamin I have two options and I'm unsure of which to use , I think the Herptivite may be better. I have the Rep-Cal Herptivite and the Exo-Terra Multi Vitamin. The schedule is to dust regularly with the Repti-Calcium ( without D3 ). Using the multivitamin and the Calcium with D3 once every 2 weeks.
Watering: I have a pump sprayer ( like what you use when you go out to kill weeds , except the only thing in there is water. I spray down his whole enclosure for about 3 minutes 3 times a day he also has a big dripper going on the whole day. I've only had him for a day and so far I have not seen him drink but I also have not been staring at him all day.
Fecal Description: He hasn't pooped yet ( only had him for a day though ) I'm unsure if he was ever tested for parasites.
History: I don't have much of his back ground other than what I could get from the previous owner I know he hasn't had a lot of room and was supplemented incorrectly. Also for 4 months he had no UVB light ( so basically his whole life.


Cage Information:
Cage type: It is the XL Reptibreeze cage. Screen on all sides, dimensions are 48 x 24 x 24.
Lighting: I am using a UVB lighting the reptisun t5 10.0 and for a basking spot I'm using the 75 watt basking bulb from Thrive. My daily lighting scheduled, it turns on at Noon and turns off at Midnight.
Temperature: The highest temp is 96°F at the top of the enclosure 73°F at the bottom of the enclosure. The lowest night time temperature was 67°F. I measured all of these with a digital thermometer.
Humidity: 60% , I mist the cage 3 times and the dripper is going on all the time. I use a non digital thermometer that also measures humidity
Plants: Currently I don't have any live plants but I will be adding some in a couple weeks. The ones I plan on adding are : Pothos , a yucca , a corn plant and if it fits a rubber tree.
Placement: The enclosure is in my bedroom in the far left corner it is not a high traffic area as I'm only in my bedroom to check / handle and feed the reptiles and then to sleep. It is not near any fans or venta but it is next to my sliding doors that lead to my balcony. I have the enclosure standing on my side table so it is taller than me and I am 5'4.
Location: I am located in Ohio, USA.

I will add some photos of him.
P.s. I will be taking him to the exotic vet within two weeks. I just want to know what you guys think and any tips you could provide. Is there anything I could do for him in the mean time until his vet visit?

 

[CBee7726]

Hey there! welcome to the forum.

So, keep in mind that I'm not a vet, but I think I do see some evidence of MBD If you take a look at the front arms, it looks like he has multiple joints. This means that the bones have broken due to weakness from lack of calcium/D3. @Beman

If you can get to the vet sooner than in 2 weeks, I would personally take him to be evaluated ASAP, especially since it appears he wasn't properly cared for prior to being in your care. The vet will do an x-ray and possibly do some bloodwork as well to determine the best course of treatment.

 

[Kaitlyn-Jane]

Hey there! welcome to the forum.

So, keep in mind that I'm not a vet, but I think I do see some evidence of MBD If you take a look at the front arms, it looks like he has multiple joints. This means that the bones have broken due to weakness from lack of calcium/D3. @Beman

If you can get to the vet sooner than in 2 weeks, I would personally take him to be evaluated ASAP, especially since it appears he wasn't properly cared for prior to being in your care. The vet will do an x-ray and possibly do some bloodwork as well to determine the best course of treatment.

Definitely! I will be taking him as soon as possible. The only reason I have to wait that long is because that is my next paycheck , my first paycheck all went to bills so I think that is the soonest I can take him unfortunately. That's what I was thinking they would do is take an x-ray and then blood work to look at his calcium - phoserous ratio. I really wish the woman would have told me sooner about his situation, though I think if I didn't take him he would have died. If his legs are that bad do you think I should move him into a smaller cage for the time being like a hospital cage type of situation?

 

[ERKleRose]

Hello! Let me start out with this little dude's story. Basically, from my understanding a woman had purchased him when he was a baby. I don't think she nessiceraly knew what she was doing considering she kept him in a glass cabinet , with no UVB. I am also unsure of what his supplementation schedule was if he even had any? I'm pretty sure he has a form of MBD. I just wanted to see what you guys thought. These pictures were taken the day I picked him up and when he was in his enclosure at my home. I know you're supposed to give them an adjustment period but he was in a cricket container way too small so I decided to hold him the ride home. So far he has had the greatest personality and been in the friendliest mood , not once has he puffed up or opened his mouth at me, unless I'm trying to take a photo of him. Really tolerates being handled , it honesty seems like he enjoys it. Anyhoot, here is some of the information I can provide.


Chameleon Information:
( un-named ) - Veild Chameleon , Male , 4 months of age,
(Un-named) - been in my care for one day.
Handling: unsure how much he was handled by the previous owner but he seems like he enjoys/ tolerates it so I'd say a decent amount.
Feeding: I will be feeding him crickets and meal worms, with a variety of allowed fruits and veggies. ( I provided him with 5 crickets this morning , he ate one and then seemed uninterested with the rest. I will be trying meal worms here soon ) The schedule I was thinking of was going to be 5 crickets or meal worms in the morning around 2pm with a small portion of leafy greens and fruit and then another set of 5 crickets or meal worms around 7 pm with a small portion of veggies. The feeder insects are gut loaded with leafy greens and potatoes also joshes frogs premium cricket cuisine.
Supplements: ( Again unsure what was used for the first 4 months of his life ) but I will be using Repti-calcium ( with D3 ) from Zoomed and the Repti-Calcium ( Without D3 ) from Zoomed now for the multivitamin I have two options and I'm unsure of which to use , I think the Herptivite may be better. I have the Rep-Cal Herptivite and the Exo-Terra Multi Vitamin. The schedule is to dust regularly with the Repti-Calcium ( without D3 ). Using the multivitamin and the Calcium with D3 once every 2 weeks.
Watering: I have a pump sprayer ( like what you use when you go out to kill weeds , except the only thing in there is water. I spray down his whole enclosure for about 3 minutes 3 times a day he also has a big dripper going on the whole day. I've only had him for a day and so far I have not seen him drink but I also have not been staring at him all day.
Fecal Description: He hasn't pooped yet ( only had him for a day though ) I'm unsure if he was ever tested for parasites.
History: I don't have much of his back ground other than what I could get from the previous owner I know he hasn't had a lot of room and was supplemented incorrectly. Also for 4 months he had no UVB light ( so basically his whole life.


Cage Information:
Cage type: It is the XL Reptibreeze cage. Screen on all sides, dimensions are 48 x 24 x 24.
Lighting: I am using a UVB lighting the reptisun t5 10.0 and for a basking spot I'm using the 75 watt basking bulb from Thrive. My daily lighting scheduled, it turns on at Noon and turns off at Midnight.
Temperature: The highest temp is 96°F at the top of the enclosure 73°F at the bottom of the enclosure. The lowest night time temperature was 67°F. I measured all of these with a digital thermometer.
Humidity: 60% , I mist the cage 3 times and the dripper is going on all the time. I use a non digital thermometer that also measures humidity
Plants: Currently I don't have any live plants but I will be adding some in a couple weeks. The ones I plan on adding are : Pothos , a yucca , a corn plant and if it fits a rubber tree.
Placement: The enclosure is in my bedroom in the far left corner it is not a high traffic area as I'm only in my bedroom to check / handle and feed the reptiles and then to sleep. It is not near any fans or venta but it is next to my sliding doors that lead to my balcony. I have the enclosure standing on my side table so it is taller than me and I am 5'4.
Location: I am located in Ohio, USA.

I will add some photos of him.
P.s. I will be taking him to the exotic vet within two weeks. I just want to know what you guys think and any tips you could provide. Is there anything I could do for him in the mean time until his vet visit?

So he does have MBD, and vet will be needed to see how bad it is and if he has parasites. Great job on making a vet appointment and coming on here! As for your form, some changes will need to be made. For his feeding, mealworms are no good and the more variety of feeders the better. I'll attach some photos and links for feeders, gutloads, supplements, veiled care, etc. at the bottom of my post. Roaches, moths, silkworms, flies, and black soldier fly larvae, etc. are all great feeders and healthier than crickets. For your gutload, I'd take out the potatoes and replace it with some healthier options. Just like with feeders, gutloads are best with a variety of foods! Zoo Med is a great supplement brand! Rep-Cal is okay, and Exo Terra is no good. To make things easier, I'd buy Zoo Med Reptivite with D3 and use that every two weeks as your multivitamin and D3. Keep up with the Zoo Med without D3 for every feeding. For your uvb lighting, unless it's hung far from the top of the top, it'll be too powerful. An Arcadia 6% or Zoo Med 5.0 should be used instead. The temperature at his basking spot is way too high. I'm not the most knowledgeable with young veiled care, but should be in the low to mid 80's*F. Someone else will have more precise temps for you, I'm sure. The humidity is high, so just misting twice a day will probably be better. Daytime humidity should be 30-50%, with nighttime being 75-100% with airflow if possible. For your live plants, make sure to clean them very well before putting them in tank, along with adding large pebbles that are too big for your chameleon to ingest them.

https://chameleonacademy.com/veiled-chameleon-care/

 

[Kaitlyn-Jane]

So he does have MBD, and vet will be needed to see how bad it is and if he has parasites. Great job on making a vet appointment and coming on here! As for your form, some changes will need to be made. For his feeding, mealworms are no good and the more variety of feeders the better. I'll attach some photos and links for feeders, gutloads, supplements, veiled care, etc. at the bottom of my post. Roaches, moths, silkworms, flies, and black soldier fly larvae, etc. are all great feeders and healthier than crickets. For your gutload, I'd take out the potatoes and replace it with some healthier options. Just like with feeders, gutloads are best with a variety of foods! Zoo Med is a great supplement brand! Rep-Cal is okay, and Exo Terra is no good. To make things easier, I'd buy Zoo Med Reptivite with D3 and use that every two weeks as your multivitamin and D3. Keep up with the Zoo Med without D3 for every feeding. For your uvb lighting, unless it's hung far from the top of the top, it'll be too powerful. An Arcadia 6% or Zoo Med 5.0 should be used instead. The temperature at his basking spot is way too high. I'm not the most knowledgeable with young veiled care, but should be in the low to mid 80's*F. Someone else will have more precise temps for you, I'm sure. The humidity is high, so just misting twice a day will probably be better. Daytime humidity should be 30-50%, with nighttime being 75-100% with airflow if possible. For your live plants, make sure to clean them very well before putting them in tank, along with adding large pebbles that are too big for your chameleon to ingest them.

https://chameleonacademy.com/veiled-chameleon-care/

View attachment 287888View attachment 287889

Alright! Thank you.

 

[CBee7726]

So he does have MBD, and vet will be needed to see how bad it is and if he has parasites. Great job on making a vet appointment and coming on here! As for your form, some changes will need to be made. For his feeding, mealworms are no good and the more variety of feeders the better. I'll attach some photos and links for feeders, gutloads, supplements, veiled care, etc. at the bottom of my post. Roaches, moths, silkworms, flies, and black soldier fly larvae, etc. are all great feeders and healthier than crickets. For your gutload, I'd take out the potatoes and replace it with some healthier options. Just like with feeders, gutloads are best with a variety of foods! Zoo Med is a great supplement brand! Rep-Cal is okay, and Exo Terra is no good. To make things easier, I'd buy Zoo Med Reptivite with D3 and use that every two weeks as your multivitamin and D3. Keep up with the Zoo Med without D3 for every feeding. For your uvb lighting, unless it's hung far from the top of the top, it'll be too powerful. An Arcadia 6% or Zoo Med 5.0 should be used instead. The temperature at his basking spot is way too high. I'm not the most knowledgeable with young veiled care, but should be in the low to mid 80's*F. Someone else will have more precise temps for you, I'm sure. The humidity is high, so just misting twice a day will probably be better. Daytime humidity should be 30-50%, with nighttime being 75-100% with airflow if possible. For your live plants, make sure to clean them very well before putting them in tank, along with adding large pebbles that are too big for your chameleon to ingest them.

https://chameleonacademy.com/veiled-chameleon-care/

View attachment 287888View attachment 287889

You got to it before I did, thanks!

 

[Kaitlyn-Jane]

Alright! Thank you.

I have a few questions on the uvb because I did do some research and some people say to use a 5.0 while others say to use a 10.0 the light has a screen between it and the enclosure plus the enclosure is 48 inches tall , it has a decent amount of foliage so is the 5.0 going to go all the way down the tank?

 

[ERKleRose]

I have a few questions on the uvb because I did do some research and some people say to use a 5.0 while others say to use a 10.0 the light has a screen between it and the enclosure plus the enclosure is 48 inches tall , it has a decent amount of foliage so is the 5.0 going to go all the way down the tank?

A 5.0 is better because you want the UV index to be at it’s highest and correct strength on his basking area

 

[ERKleRose]

Also, I forget to put that the pebbles go over the plant soil in the pot, and the plant should be repotted with soil that should be organic/pesticide-free/clean/etc.

 

[CBee7726]

Also, I forget to put that the pebbles go over the plant soil in the pot, and the plant should be repotted with soil that should be organic/pesticide-free/clean/etc.

Just a quick note on this: make sure that the pebbles/rocks you use are too big to fit in your cham's mouth (to avoid accidental ingestion)

 

[Beman]

I have a few questions on the uvb because I did do some research and some people say to use a 5.0 while others say to use a 10.0 the light has a screen between it and the enclosure plus the enclosure is 48 inches tall , it has a decent amount of foliage so is the 5.0 going to go all the way down the tank?

With UVB nothing can penetrate all the way into the bottom of the cage... And we don't want it to. They need to be able to regulate their UVB.

With the 10.0 in a single bulb T5HO fixture you want about 11-12 inches to the basking branch. This gives the closest branch at that distance a 3 UVI level.
However it uses a lot of your top third of your cage. So most of us use 5.0 or 6% bulbs with basking branch 9 inches down to give a 3 UVI level at the branch.

The UVB will drop off completely by 15-18 inches away from the light. These levels farther down are extremely minimal. But as I said you want it that way. With their highest level at the top and the gradient going down.

 

[Kaitlyn-Jane]

With UVB nothing can penetrate all the way into the bottom of the cage... And we don't want it to. They need to be able to regulate their UVB.

With the 10.0 in a single bulb T5HO fixture you want about 11-12 inches to the basking branch. This gives the closest branch at that distance a 3 UVI level.
However it uses a lot of your top third of your cage. So most of us use 5.0 or 6% bulbs with basking branch 9 inches down to give a 3 UVI level at the branch.

The UVB will drop off completely by 15-18 inches away from the light. These levels farther down are extremely minimal. But as I said you want it that way. With their highest level at the top and the gradient going down.

Okay, thank you so much for the information, I will be swapping out my 10.0 for a 5.0.

 

[Beman]

Okay, thank you so much for the information, I will be swapping out my 10.0 for a 5.0.

So then you will have 9 inches to basking branch with the fixture sitting on top of the cage... make sure there is a branch below where that fixture sits at that distance... Get him on the proper supplementation asap. His MBD is not as advanced as I have seen. Make sure whatever vet you take them to they actually have cham experience. They will more then likely put him on an oral calcium to help his bone density recover faster.

 

[Kaitlyn-Jane]

So then you will have 9 inches to basking branch with the fixture sitting on top of the cage... make sure there is a branch below where that fixture sits at that distance... Get him on the proper supplementation asap. His MBD is not as advanced as I have seen. Make sure whatever vet you take them to they actually have cham experience. They will more then likely put him on an oral calcium to help his bone density recover faster.

Yes I will move his basking branch down a bit further , I think it is about 6-7 inches away now and I have a rack so the light is a bit higher above the screen but I'll get in there and move some things around so it is a bit cleaner. I am going to one that someone else suggested in the other forum post of like vets in areas. That was another question of mine I saw somewhere , that someone suggested to get the oral liquid calcium and to give two drops to your chameleon once a day. Would that even be safe for me to do in the mean time before I take him to the vet or do you think I should just wait. I don't want to overdose him with it but if there is anything I can do to help him out before hand i'd like to do so.

 

[Beman]

Yes I will move his basking branch down a bit further , I think it is about 6-7 inches away now and I have a rack so the light is a bit higher above the screen but I'll get in there and move some things around so it is a bit cleaner. I am going to one that someone else suggested in the other forum post of like vets in areas. That was another question of mine I saw somewhere , that someone suggested to get the oral liquid calcium and to give two drops to your chameleon once a day. Would that even be safe for me to do in the mean time before I take him to the vet or do you think I should just wait. I don't want to overdose him with it but if there is anything I can do to help him out before hand i'd like to do so.

So if the fixture is raised you account for the distance it is raised... So measure from the top of the cage screen to the bottom of the fixture. Take that and subtract it off to total distance. Say you keep the 10.0 bulb... You want 11-12 inches total distance. So subtract the distance from that then your branch needs to be that distance from the screen to the branch.

You may already be ok on your distances Just measure to make sure. A bit above a 3 UVI will not hurt him. Let me know what your measured distances are hun.

I would not give the oral unless you know exact amounts based on his weight... This is why seeing a vet is better IMO. Plus they need to show you how to give it since their airway is in the front and you can aspirate them if you put it in the wrong spot.

But you can start your regular supplements and have his UVB perfect. This will help in the meantime. Keep him on the 5 feeders each day for the next month that way you can give him supplements every day. I would switch to the reptivite with D3 and give 2 times a month. Using the calcium without D3 at all other feedings. No mealworms and no feeding him veg and fruit. They are insectivores and should not be given other items.

 

[Kaitlyn-Jane]

Okay so the distance from the bottom of the uvb to the screen is 3.5 inches and the branch is 6 inches away from the top of the screen. So if I wanted to just use the 10.0 because I already have it , I could just move his basking branch down 2-3 inches?

Would you suggest that and then when it's time to replace the bulb I can switch to a 5.0? Or would I be better for me to just return the 10.0 and get a 5.0 and start with that from the get-go.

Ah, I have a scale that I weigh all my reptiles in , in grams. I have not weighed him yet but even if I did know his exact weight I don't wanna choke him when administratoring the medicine so I'll probably just wait for the vet. I am going today to get the reptivite, also I ordered some black solder fly larvae to replace the meal worms. I will also be picking up some Dubia roaches. No fruits or veggies , got it thank you so much for the help I really appreciate it. This is my first chameleon so I'm a bit new on everything but I just wanna get it right and give him a better life then what he had.

 

[Beman]

Okay so the distance from the bottom of the uvb to the screen is 3.5 inches and the branch is 6 inches away from the top of the screen. So if I wanted to just use the 10.0 because I already have it , I could just move his basking branch down 2-3 inches?

Would you suggest that and then when it's time to replace the bulb I can switch to a 5.0? Or would I be better for me to just return the 10.0 and get a 5.0 and start with that from the get-go.

Ah, I have a scale that I weigh all my reptiles in , in grams. I have not weighed him yet but even if I did know his exact weight I don't wanna choke him when administratoring the medicine so I'll probably just wait for the vet. I am going today to get the reptivite, also I ordered some black solder fly larvae to replace the meal worms. I will also be picking up some Dubia roaches. No fruits or veggies , got it ☺ thank you so much for the help I really appreciate it. This is my first chameleon so I'm a bit new on everything but I just wanna get it right and give him a better life then what he had.

Because of the MBD... A bit higher UVI will not hurt him and since we are guessing on exact UVI level at branch... Since it is a 10.0 bulb Lets go with total distance being 11 inches to branch. Because these bulbs are a bit weaker then the 12%.

And just confirming there is not plastic covering the bulb in the fixture right it is open and exposed with a metal reflector?

Ok so that would mean you would lower the branch 1.5 inches... That is going to put him in a 3 UVI range. top of back roughly 3.5. They can safely have as high as a 6 UVI level so he is still within limits.

Could you show me a pic of the set up? I just want to make sure what you mean by lots of plants. We want an open area with total exposure to the uvb at the top.

This is the best site for learning accurate info https://chameleonacademy.com/

 

[Kaitlyn-Jane]

Because of the MBD... A bit higher UVI will not hurt him and since we are guessing on exact UVI level at branch... Since it is a 10.0 bulb Lets go with total distance being 11 inches to branch. Because these bulbs are a bit weaker then the 12%.

And just confirming there is not plastic covering the bulb in the fixture right it is open and exposed with a metal reflector?

Ok so that would mean you would lower the branch 1.5 inches... That is going to put him in a 3 UVI range. top of back roughly 3.5. They can safely have as high as a 6 UVI level so he is still within limits.

Could you show me a pic of the set up? I just want to make sure what you mean by lots of plants. We want an open area with total exposure to the uvb at the top.

This is the best site for learning accurate info https://chameleonacademy.com/

It isn't horribly like covered it has decent foliage , will be adding more soon tho with also plants and yes I can add a photo of the set up. I don't have the bulb in his uvb just cause I was unsure with everything and didn't wanna hurt him but once everything is fixed I will be adding it back into the fixture. The fixture itself is open it dosnt have any like plastic or anything but the rack is metal and it's like, idk you'll see in the photo.

 

[Kaitlyn-Jane]

So this is the set up currently

 

[Beman]

It isn't horribly like covered it has decent foliage , will be adding more soon tho with also plants and yes I can add a photo of the set up. I don't have the bulb in his uvb just cause I was unsure with everything and didn't wanna hurt him but once everything is fixed I will be adding it back into the fixture. The fixture itself is open it dosnt have any like plastic or anything but the rack is metal and it's like, idk you'll see in the photo.

Add the bulb back hun... It will not be over the 6 UVI level being an inch and a half closer. He needs the UVB now. It literally would not be enough to hurt him. But long term it is not the levels we want him to stay at which is why dropping the basking is important.