A Shock

[ClmbrJ]

hmm, where have I been? I been missin out on a great topic that's where!!


Like em? no not really, I do not find them attractive. Study them and breed for that intention? hell, I would rather see that than selling 200 dollar vields left and right to people who have never had a cham before.

At 3000 each it is cost prohibitive to have this cham for anything other than breeding and research.

Now, then again if you turn the other cheak and are not carefull about who your selling to this morph could work it's way back into bloodlines it would not have if never bred (ofourse you could argue it is already there obviosly!)

the fact of the matter is that there are a lot of cham people who will turn thier cheek and not speak up, and others who will. What is really important is who leads the way?

I don't know a lot about the politics and ins-and_outs of the Cham world, but I do know we are talking about possibly one of the most respected breeders out there. So long as he is selling to the "right" people (again only only experienced keepers are going to spend this kind of money)

From a purely natural standpoint I would very much be agaisn't breeding this animal (or any other for that matter, for the purpose of self-pleasure or proffit anyway)

but from a realistic stand point it is already happening and too late to stop it. SO, perhaps constructive conversation on management might be an idea?

In the dog world it is very common to sign contracts not to breed a pup for any number of reasons (i.e. albino...sp?) Or even not to breed for a certain time period, or until some certification takes place.

Maybe a cham breeders association, with certifications and credintials and such, modeled after the AKC or EKC


work together not agaisnt eachother.

 

[Will Hayward]

I do know we are talking about possibly one of the most respected breeders out there.

Hahaha, someone take a photo of Tyler, I'll bet he's blushin' ear to ear! Way to go buddy!

Studying these chameleon will bring more info than just research about themselves, but it will enlighten us on new information conceraning NORMAL chameleons that do not have the genetic traits of translucents or Hypermelanistics. Its much hader to study a normal of a species, when you don't have abnormal specimens to compare their reactions to different aspects of their life.

 

[Frank Castle]

In my opinion, a genetic defect occurring naturally in the wild does not automatically equate to being ethically sound for producing in captivity. Scientific research yes, but for the pet trade? I can understand how people might have a problem with some scenarios.

Genetic Defect or Genetic Mutation? Maybe this is a part of the Cham Evolution. There are other WC species showing up with this same traight. Maybe they are evolving? Maybe we are witnessing the first stages of an evolutionary change? With the Habitats shrinking, and their limited locations in the world as it is, they could be changing. Who Knows if or how many changes they have evolved with over the countless years? Just food for thought. It may be a defect, or it may be something that is happening naturally that we will see more of in the future (In the wild)?

Frank

 

[Chris Anderson]

In my opinion, a genetic defect occurring naturally in the wild does not automatically equate to being ethically sound for producing in captivity. Scientific research yes, but for the pet trade? I can understand how people might have a problem with some scenarios.

Similarly, I can completely understand how many people feel chameleons in general should not be imported or kept or bred in captivity at all. Far more die every year in captivity then are produced. Is that ethical?

Chris

 

[TylerStewart]

I just caught up on this thread while cruising across Colorado and into Nebraska (finally talked the girlfriend into driving), sorry for the delayed response if it was even wanted. Thanks to those who know the situation and gave positive comments (thanks Will, I did blush a little). I have several things to touch on, so here goes.

First off, when I referred to them as "retarted," besides being sacrastic (as I am with most posts if you know me), I was picking on little Holland, the first to offer these in the United States. That was when they first came in at the Daytona Expo and less was known about them. After seeing these in person and learning about them from the Eurpoean breeder and others, I'm not as critical now as I was then. In my limited experience with them, I have seen nothing or experienced nothing wrong in any way. In fact, they're very good eaters and have nice strong grips. Sure, there may be a visual difference, but that doesn't mean they're going to slowly become deformed if they're bred further. If anyone breeding these was to come across a physical problem, breeding them would be scrapped, as they would not be functional chameleons and would be worth $0.00. As far as I see right now, there's no "problem" at all with these besides a clear leg or two.

As was pointed out in a few other posts, the price of these prevents the 14 year old down the street from buying these and throwing them in a plastic tub with the traditional waterfall and mealworm combination.

If you (West Coast Chams, or anyone else) has a problem with the selling or breeding of something with a visual "difference (I'm not calling it a flaw because I see no flaw)," feel free not to buy from me, I'll still have dinner on the table. But if you buy from the next guy thinking you're getting something with no genetic issues, again, you're crazy (just cause you can't see them doesn't mean they're not there) .

On a final note, if anyone knew the genetic problems that other breeders are having with panthers, I would be a hero to every one of you. I can't go much further into this, but you're the ones buying them. Think a little deeper before you talk sometimes, and keep the chameleon books away from the bathtub, you're reading too much.

I think I've made my point, but in case I haven't, feel free to ask.

 

[edub2017]

I believe that the whole idea of selling them so that they can be researched further, bred and carefully monitered, etc. sounds like an admirable thing to do. However, since this thread has a stern and matter-of-fact vibe, let's be frank. This is a business decision. Nothing more. Trust me on this, this would not be the first time a business man put personal ethics aside to turn huge profits, it happens everyday. Do you beleive that this breeder would not sell the chameleon to some punk-a$$ rich kid who wants the most exotic and rare reptile on the block? Honestly, in the bredder's own words, "most chameleon people got a good laugh from it". What does that mean? To me, it means that serious "chameleon people"-- the one's who will conduct studies-- would not even consider purchasing these morphs.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Anyone who thinks science is cheap or that scientists are loaded needs a reality check. Scientific studies need funding from somewhere and these animals are not cheap (they had to be purchased from European breeders at quite a cost themselves). Efforts are underway to test for any potential harmful effects from this defect but some of the limited number of animals have to be sold to cover those costs. Further, for any study to be effective, it should be done from hatching which requires those involved in the process of establishing this study to wait until we can work with just that. Science takes time and in time, and with a little luck, we will be closer to understanding this mutation further in the near future. I do encourage anyone who ends up with these animals to stay in contact with me and participate in this study.

Chris

 

[TylerStewart]

Lol

This is a business decision. Nothing more. Trust me on this, this would not be the first time a business man put personal ethics aside to turn huge profits, it happens everyday. Do you beleive that this breeder would not sell the chameleon to some punk-a$$ rich kid who wants the most exotic and rare reptile on the block?

Ha ha ha, that was great... For everyone's information, I would literally make more "huge profits" by selling my last Loki Sambava male than I would be selling either of these veileds.

Don't assume anything about my ethics until you know me. If you knew me, you wouldn't have said that, and if you think I'll sell to any "punk-a$$ rich kid" with the money, test me. Set up a fake e-mail address and act interested and see how excited I get.

 

[edub2017]

I will take that last comment with a grain of salt considering your recent brush with "foot-in-mouth". The only thing i gathered about your ethics, i gathered from your own words. They are here on this forum, everyone can see them. Explain to me how you can say no serious chameleon person would buy such a chameleon, then claim your marketing them to serious "chameleon people"; just one of your many contradictions. I find your excuses for your previous comments to be laughable. It's also disheartning that so many people will, like yourself, change their entire view on these chameleons seemingly overnight. Quite the following you have here.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Out of curiousity, why are you beating around the bush? Who exactly are all these people you speak of who have changed their minds about these chameleons?

Chris

 

[Brad]

Reminder To All
Please refrain from using personal attacks. If you can not resist, then do so privately.



Now for a few comments:


I have seen people using the argument that because current captive chameleons are not genetically perfect, then it is ok to introduce chameleons with translucent skin. I think this is a poor argument. We can do better than that.

I also believe, in most cases, the talk about research as a main motivator is highly exaggerated. How many people within the community really have the credentials to do any serious research? Not very many. Among those, who is actually going to do research? Anyone (please stand up)? What are you going to research? How long will this take? What kind of sample will this require? If you eventually found poor results, what would you do then?

It is true that the high price will keep most inexperienced owners away. However, this is not the reason for the high price. The reason for the price is scarcity and profit potential.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Brad,

I'm more then willing to conduct tests and its already being arranged. As I said, it takes time-at least from hatching to hatching unless obvious negative results occur and very possibly into an additional generation. Obviously, it would need multiple control and test groups and this isn't cheap but we're working toward getting it covered (as I said, some need to be sold to cover the original costs of purchase). If negative result do show up, I definitely would make that public (as I would with any other results). I'm also in the process of starting up a nutritional study with veileds with Jason which we'll be releasing the findings of as they are known. There are those of us around interested in this type of research and in this case, I believe a significant amount will be learned about the mutation.

Chris

 

[Will Hayward]

I also believe, in most cases, the talk about research as a main motivator is highly exaggerated. How many people within the community really have the credentials to do any serious research? Not very many. Among those, who is actually going to do research? Anyone (please stand up)? What are you going to research? How long will this take? What kind of sample will this require? If you eventually found poor results, what would you do then?

Precisely why Tyler is not posting the Translucents in Kingsnake ads or advertising them to everyone. Only posting them on his site, allows him to link people whom he things would be a valid candidate. Anyone that finds them through his site that he does not know or does very apparently not have the knowledge, he would easily 'screen' then out.

How many people have the credentials to do it? More than you would think I bet. I also bet that they are the ones that have been staying quiet and not posting on forums because they understand that you need to know something to say something.

What could they research? Growth rates, dietary requirements, health, fitness, responce to different types of lights and light intensities, how their skin cells change colour, how to breed for brighter more colourful chameleons, what ill effects can UV give them, finding the DNA that is causing it. Finding out how to prevent it. Finding out if they are defective. I can't even speculate what we could learn, but in the right hands, I bet some of the things could make a pretty big ripple in how veileds or all chameleons are looked after.

If poor results were found, they would stop being bred. They would be kept in safe hands. Eventually they would die out, providing data on their lifespan in comparaision to normals. In the wrong hands, the trait would pop up randomly as hets slip into the market. Now deemed "health defective" any sensible breeder would restart his bloodlines to purge the trait.

 

[TylerStewart]

It's also disheartning that so many people will, like yourself, change their entire view on these chameleons seemingly overnight. Quite the following you have here.

I fail to understand where I put my foot in my mouth. If my original explanation of why I changed my outlook was too much for you to comprehend, you're on your own. I'm not going to argue with you about it, I don't have time and I'll end up feeling like I'm arguing with a kid about why he can't have a cookie before bed.

As I stated before, I have no reason to do this for money. There's no money in it for me anyways, so it's not an ethics issue.

 

[Brad]

Precisely why Tyler is not posting the Translucents in Kingsnake ads or advertising them to everyone. Only posting them on his site, allows him to link people whom he things would be a valid candidate. Anyone that finds them through his site that he does not know or does very apparently not have the knowledge, he would easily 'screen' then out.

I am not questioning Tyler at all; I am just posting my opinions on translucent veileds in general.

What could they research? Growth rates, dietary requirements, health, fitness, ..., finding the DNA that is causing it

I didnt ask what could they research, I asked what would they research. I am trying to show there is a difference between someone like Chris and others on this forum who know proper research, compared to someone who just breeds a few generations and assumes everything is ok.

If poor results were found, they would stop being bred. They would be kept in safe hands. Eventually they would die out, providing data on their lifespan in comparaision to normals.

Why not wait until we know the results of this research?


1070

 

[Jason]

I don't really care to get involved in all of this but I do have a few points...

The fact of the matter is that people are doing research. As Chris stated we have a project in the works now and several others on tap. Conducting research takes time, money and space and trust me, we aren't making a dime for doing this. It would be quite difficult to convince someone who just paid $3000 for an animal to hand it over, at no charge, for tests that might dissuade others from buying these animals in the future. I don't think any of us would do that.

I don't know why Tyler was singled out but this seems to be more personal than chameleon based. He bought the animals, and as a result he is free to sell them to whomever he would like. If he screens the buyers he's doing more than most. I only know of a handful of true breeders who screen each potential customer. The only thing I would ask of Tyler is to keep us posted on the animals and convey any info that may be useful to Chris or myself.

The main issue in my mind with these animals is the way they were originally marketed. Attempting to sell a new morph/genetic mutation through the use baseless statements quoted as fact is unacceptable. I suppose that when you have little actual experience to back up your statements you have to resort to what you know how to do. The fact of the matter is none of us know how these animals will react to UV, how this mutation will affect future generations, etc. However, by marketing this way these animals have been thrust into a negative light in many peoples mind and regardless of how they are handled they will continue to hold this view until solid info is available, which will be a year or two at best.

 

[westcoastchameleons]

i was merly using tyler as an example(not personaly attacking him asyoumay have thought), in that like i said, its a shock that a major breeder would go to selling a chameleon that may have genetic defects.

 

[Jordan]

I did not really think it was out of line. You where just stating an opinion.

 

[Will Hayward]

its a shock that a major breeder would go to selling a chameleon that may have genetic defects.

The person buying the chameleon would obviously know it has defects. He has nothing to hide about them. May have defects? Any chameleon may have defects, these ones just show it for sure. Anyone buying these is not going to be surprised, they are buying for learning.

It's also disheartning that so many people will, like yourself, change their entire view on these chameleons seemingly overnight.

Overnight?! Maybe it changed from when A) he was looking at a photo on the net for the first time to B) he had a chance to see the chameleon in person. Isn't that enough? Havent we all doubted the existance of that silly albino Jacksons chameleon?

 

[PEPPERQUILL1]

Hi,
Why is it a shock to you?If Tyler wanted to sell chameleons with three heads ,for those who take things literaly this is an example, dont send me any emails, I am using this as a figure of speach and three headed chams shouldn't be sold or breed.I honestly don't think you should be sending him any nasty emails, if thats what he wants to sell so be it.These chams haven't been droppoing dead nor exhibiting anything negative from this.Why don't you go pester the ball python dealers?
Thanks,
Holland