A thought on veiled health

[Scottsquatch]

So since I have been in this hobby it has come to my attention that veiled chameleons have a lot more health problems than other species of Chameleons. At first I simply wrote it off as statistical odds due to the numbers of veiled Chams out there and the fact that a great many of them are owned by new and novice keepers. Of course they will be dying in greater numbers if that's the case right? So I let it go at that.
Recently I discovered some facts that made me think that maybe this isn't the case. I was listening to one of the more recent chameleon breeders podcasts about veiled Chameleons and learned that most of the veiled chameleons here in the US are the descedants of the first group that was brought in and bred by Ron Tremper (If I remember correctly) Anyway, it occurrd to me that maybe many of the health problems could be the result of a lack of genetic diversity. We all know what can happen when animals are inbred right? So maybe that is a large factor in the health problems with veiled chameleons.
The other fact that I learned is that most veiled chameleons hatch, reach maturity, breed, and then die all in one season. I honestly did not know this was the case with veileds. I knew there are some species in Madagascar that have this seasonal life cycle, but I didn't know this was the case for veileds. This got me to thinking and I have come up with a theory about it. I wish I could test this theory, but I don't.know how it could be done short of mapping the entire genome of veiled chameleons and we KNOW that isn't happening anytime soon. So heres my theory. I am thinking that veiled chameleons may not have the genetics to live long and healthy lives. If they are only meant to live one season maybe they just don't have the proper genetic coding for longevity. Maybe they are prone to health problems because they simply aren't meant to live as long as they do in captivity and as such have not had a chance to evolve to be more resistant to many of the health problems that plague them.
Now, I am not trying to present any of this as fact, I'm only sharing an idea that I find interesting. In the spirit of good conversation, I would like to hear what you all think of this theory and would like you to share any theories or ideas you might have about veiled chameleon health. I look forward to hearing your responses.

 

[jannb]

I’ve had veileds live to 6 years old and a baby that I hatched passed just a could of months shy of 8 years and never had any Heath problems his entire life. I currently have a 4 year old female still going strong. Others on here have had them live way long than me.
You might find this older thread interesting. https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/who-has-the-oldest-veil-out-there.4646/

 

[Scottsquatch]

I don't mean that they live a 1 year life span in captivity, I mean that their natural life cycle in nature is only a year. I find it interesting they carry on so much longer in captivity and wonder if they have the code for longevity in their genome even thoughh it isn't utilized in their natural habitat. I'm thinking they may be prone to more health problems because they have not evolved to be resistant to much of what plagues them becase in nature they would not be around long enough to have to deal with these issues. Does anybody follow my logic here?

 

[jamest0o0]

It's a good thought and I wouldn't doubt a lot of what you're saying, but I'm almost certain the veiled health problems are due to the mass producers of terribly unhealthy veileds, passing mbd down, among other things. Pair that with their disgustingly cheap price and they become a throw away toy for people with a fleeting reptile interest. Most people that buy veileds, get them on a whim at a petstore. Don't have a clue and always have those garbage chameleon kits. There's probably a post a day about veileds suffering from something, most of these people are never heard from again after a few posts. Almost every single one has husbandry practices/set up that indicates they've done next to no research. This is seen much less with panther prices and up. It's really like two separate communities, those who are passionate and serious about cham keeping and those that bought a cheap cool toy. Uhhh I could rant all day about this, but yeah, basically the main problem is the price of veileds.

Also, chameleons don't seem as affected by genetic diversity, though I may be wrong. There couldn't have been too much in the Hawaiian jacksons? yet they thrive there. I heard veileds die because of the dry season, though I'm not sure if that's a fact. If so though, it's probably due to humans and climate change.

 

[Scottsquatch]

But dont get me wrong, I really like my veileds. I was just very interested and suprised at how short their lifespan is in there natural environment.

 

[CamrynTheCham22]

How long do your guys' female veileds usually live? I know @jannb said she has one that is 4 years old above, but can they sometimes live even longer than that?

 

[chameleonneeds]

I have often questioned the same thing with the chameleons here in South Africa.

We probably have an even more insignificant gene pool of veileds here. I believe every single veiled alive here are born from inbreeding. And for a long time it has been the same thing with the panther chameleons we have. I have read that inbreeding does not have as great affect on reptiles as it would for mammals but I doubt that in my own capacity. Even in the hands of the best breeders, many people struggle with successfully breeding Panthers. I have seen many panthers that have EXTREMELY slow growth. One of the biggest issues I've seen is that the babies are never strong enough to break through their own eggs and many have thus resorted to cutting eggs open at the first sign of being ready to hatch. Ofcourse this could be for other reasons but I don't understand how so many breeders, including myself, have encountered this problem. Out of 70 eggs I once had, only 2 babies came out and grew. Other times people may have all their eggs hatch only to find that every single baby dies within the first month. There is member on here from SA (Denis) who this has happened to. And he is not the only person I know of. Quite often, after a female panther's first clutch she dies eggbound from the second clutch just a few months later - with no attempt to lay as she did perfectly the first time. I personally believe that this is the result of intense in breeding. I tried my best to get my hands on new bloodlines and subsequently stopped breeding chameleons when I couldn't get any new bloodlines into the country.

 

[leedragon]

But do they really live that short time? I wonder there is said that back then they camr in huge sizze and the same is with the wild caught of Florida. I belive they can not get that big in just one season, they must be a couple of years atleas. It is my belive that Yemens here in Europé are the descendants of the Yemens imported many years ago so the story is the same here.

 

[jannb]

I don't mean that they live a 1 year life span in captivity, I mean that their natural life cycle in nature is only a year. I find it interesting they carry on so much longer in captivity and wonder if they have the code for longevity in their genome even thoughh it isn't utilized in their natural habitat. I'm thinking they may be prone to more health problems because they have not evolved to be resistant to much of what plagues them becase in nature they would not be around long enough to have to deal with these issues. Does anybody follow my logic here?

I think the same holds true for a lot of the Panthers too. When we visit Nosy Be both times we were told most of the Nosy Be only live a year. When the dry seasons comes most die.

 

[jannb]

So since I have been in this hobby it has come to my attention that veiled chameleons have a lot more health problems than other species of Chameleons. At first I simply wrote it off as statistical odds due to the numbers of veiled Chams out there and the fact that a great many of them are owned by new and novice keepers. Of course they will be dying in greater numbers if that's the case right? So I let it go at that.
Recently I discovered some facts that made me think that maybe this isn't the case. I was listening to one of the more recent chameleon breeders podcasts about veiled Chameleons and learned that most of the veiled chameleons here in the US are the descedants of the first group that was brought in and bred by Ron Tremper (If I remember correctly) Anyway, it occurrd to me that maybe many of the health problems could be the result of a lack of genetic diversity. We all know what can happen when animals are inbred right? So maybe that is a large factor in the health problems with veiled chameleons.
The other fact that I learned is that most veiled chameleons hatch, reach maturity, breed, and then die all in one season. I honestly did not know this was the case with veileds. I knew there are some species in Madagascar that have this seasonal life cycle, but I didn't know this was the case for veileds. This got me to thinking and I have come up with a theory about it. I wish I could test this theory, but I don't.know how it could be done short of mapping the entire genome of veiled chameleons and we KNOW that isn't happening anytime soon. So heres my theory. I am thinking that veiled chameleons may not have the genetics to live long and healthy lives. If they are only meant to live one season maybe they just don't have the proper genetic coding for longevity. Maybe they are prone to health problems because they simply aren't meant to live as long as they do in captivity and as such have not had a chance to evolve to be more resistant to many of the health problems that plague them.
Now, I am not trying to present any of this as fact, I'm only sharing an idea that I find interesting. In the spirit of good conversation, I would like to hear what you all think of this theory and would like you to share any theories or ideas you might have about veiled chameleon health. I look forward to hearing your responses.

Petr Necas knows more about veileds in the wild than anyone else I know. Was Petr in the Podcast? I have not listened to that Podcast yet.

 

[Scottsquatch]

He was in one of the two recent veiled posts.

 

[Curlytails]

So since I have been in this hobby it has come to my attention that veiled chameleons have a lot more health problems than other species of Chameleons. At first I simply wrote it off as statistical odds due to the numbers of veiled Chams out there and the fact that a great many of them are owned by new and novice keepers. Of course they will be dying in greater numbers if that's the case right? So I let it go at that.
Recently I discovered some facts that made me think that maybe this isn't the case. I was listening to one of the more recent chameleon breeders podcasts about veiled Chameleons and learned that most of the veiled chameleons here in the US are the descedants of the first group that was brought in and bred by Ron Tremper (If I remember correctly) Anyway, it occurrd to me that maybe many of the health problems could be the result of a lack of genetic diversity. We all know what can happen when animals are inbred right? So maybe that is a large factor in the health problems with veiled chameleons.
The other fact that I learned is that most veiled chameleons hatch, reach maturity, breed, and then die all in one season. I honestly did not know this was the case with veileds. I knew there are some species in Madagascar that have this seasonal life cycle, but I didn't know this was the case for veileds. This got me to thinking and I have come up with a theory about it. I wish I could test this theory, but I don't.know how it could be done short of mapping the entire genome of veiled chameleons and we KNOW that isn't happening anytime soon. So heres my theory. I am thinking that veiled chameleons may not have the genetics to live long and healthy lives. If they are only meant to live one season maybe they just don't have the proper genetic coding for longevity. Maybe they are prone to health problems because they simply aren't meant to live as long as they do in captivity and as such have not had a chance to evolve to be more resistant to many of the health problems that plague them.
Now, I am not trying to present any of this as fact, I'm only sharing an idea that I find interesting. In the spirit of good conversation, I would like to hear what you all think of this theory and would like you to share any theories or ideas you might have about veiled chameleon health. I look forward to hearing your responses.

very interesting... in the uk chameleons seem pretty sturdy. most of our livestock here is being captive bred and i personally think its because of the gene pools mixing with each other e.g. chameleons from germany etc. this adds more genetic variation making a healthier animal. this usually occurs because there isnt as large of a demand for them here and most of the chameleons sold are bred by private breeders or hobbyists like you and i. it all comes down to genetic variation in my opinion. anyone with any other ideas/views correct me if im mistaken.

 

[Curlytails]

I have often questioned the same thing with the chameleons here in South Africa.

We probably have an even more insignificant gene pool of veileds here. I believe every single veiled alive here are born from inbreeding. And for a long time it has been the same thing with the panther chameleons we have. I have read that inbreeding does not have as great affect on reptiles as it would for mammals but I doubt that in my own capacity. Even in the hands of the best breeders, many people struggle with successfully breeding Panthers. I have seen many panthers that have EXTREMELY slow growth. One of the biggest issues I've seen is that the babies are never strong enough to break through their own eggs and many have thus resorted to cutting eggs open at the first sign of being ready to hatch. Ofcourse this could be for other reasons but I don't understand how so many breeders, including myself, have encountered this problem. Out of 70 eggs I once had, only 2 babies came out and grew. Other times people may have all their eggs hatch only to find that every single baby dies within the first month. There is member on here from SA (Denis) who this has happened to. And he is not the only person I know of. Quite often, after a female panther's first clutch she dies eggbound from the second clutch just a few months later - with no attempt to lay as she did perfectly the first time. I personally believe that this is the result of intense in breeding. I tried my best to get my hands on new bloodlines and subsequently stopped breeding chameleons when I couldn't get any new bloodlines into the country.

genetics is very important. if the animals become homozygous(also known as looking like one parent) the veiled population in SA will diminish within a couple of years. do you know any importers? you may be able to help the animals out by increasing a variation in genetics. do you ever come across any deformities? (sorry for the little rant im a nerd for biology)

 

[jamest0o0]

@Curlytails how did jacksons populate Hawaii if inbreeding was so detrimental to their health? Sure I think it helps to have new blood, but i really doubt that would have as big of an impact as it's made out to be. The number one problem is mass producing with poor husbandry due to cheap prices. I love the thought behind it, but I really can't be convinced that it's anything more complex than their throw-away toy status. I think because of this a lot of the better keepers aren't keeping veileds because of that stigma. They may not say it, but it's just the truth.

 

[leedragon]

very interesting... in the uk chameleons seem pretty sturdy. most of our livestock here is being captive bred and i personally think its because of the gene pools mixing with each other e.g. chameleons from germany etc. this adds more genetic variation making a healthier animal. this usually occurs because there isnt as large of a demand for them here and most of the chameleons sold are bred by private breeders or hobbyists like you and i. it all comes down to genetic variation in my opinion. anyone with any other ideas/views correct me if im mistiaken.

I am just guessing here but the germanand the uk Yemens have the same ancestors, since no new Yemens have been imported from the wild in many years.