ADVICE Please! Poss Beginning Panther URI

[jwlerza22]

Hello, although I have been using this site extensively for some time now, this is my first post to it. I was hoping my first post was going to be filled with pictures bragging about my beautiful Blue Bar Ambilobe, Bagheera, and his custom enclosure. Unfortunately, this post is regarding what I believe to be the initial stages of a URI.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Male, Blue Bar Ambilobe, 5-6 months old and I have had him for one month.
Handling - I handle him 1-2 times a day, mostly when he runs over and tries to climb up my hand.
Feeding - Dubia Roaches gutloaded with an all natural dry chow blend along with vegetables and fruit. He is eating approximately 4-5 a day. Supplemented with Total Bites and dusted with Exo Terra Multi Vitamin.
Watering - Custom Automatic Rain Ring that goes off every 2 hours during daylight for 1-2 minutes. I see him drinking routinely.
Fecal Description - He has not been tested for parasites but fecal matter is of normal color and consistency, urates are normal white as well.
History - He eats, drinks, and defecates regularly and is very active and social. Seems to be very happy and healthy until this morning.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - 24X24X54. Custom Enclosure. I retro'd an old china cabinet into what I thought was the perfect enclosure. Acrylic Plexiglass Front Door, Full Length Wire Sides, and Partial Wire Top. Automatic Drainage with ZERO Substrate.
Lighting - Reptisun 5.0 Uvb 18 inch, 12 on/12 off.
Temperature - Clay Emitter Supplement Heater, 88 basking, 75 ambient. Measured with two separate with analog thermometers.
Humidity - Analog Hygrometer, low's of 48, high's of 65, average of 50.
Plants - One Live Croton and One Live Golden Apothos
Placement - Cage is in dining room, low to moderate traffic, and his top basking spot is approximately 6 feet off of the ground.
Location - Northern California

Current Problem - So far, Bagheera, has been a happy and healthy Panther. He eats plenty, active in his cage during the day, and seems to want to be social whenever a hand is in his cage tending to the feeder bowl or taking care of husbandry. He is frequently drinking water and had his first shed in my care 2 weeks ago. However, this morning I noticed he has a very faint "clicking" noise sporadically when he is walking. He has snorted/sneezed every so often but I believe this is slightly normal? He has NO other signs/symptoms of a URI or MBD, I have researched both. I am thinking about increasing his basking temp for the time being, I am thinking this may help mitigate any progression of a URI if this is the very beginning stages of one.

Is there anything else that could cause these clicking/popping noises? He seems to be very healthy and happy.

 

[jwlerza22]

More Enclosure Pictures...

A few more pics of Bagheera's Bachelor pad.

 

[Ocelot357]

how many times a week r you dusting his food? and do you cover them completely with the dust?.

 

[Ocelot357]

could possibly be a respiratory problem, mucus build up. Maybe you are misting too much, every 2 hours?. Seems a lot to me. he needs dry periods too. I only mist mine like twice a day, once in morning for 4 minutes and same in late noon like 3pm

 

[zlew]

for your supplements, you want to dust the feeders with calcium WITHOUT D3 everyday, and calcium WITH D3 twice a week. The multivitamin should only be used twice a month.

 

[zlew]

also, you could put some more climbing sticks and foliage in there, it might make him a little happier. Also, while the ceramic heat emitter provides great heat, its better to use a bulb that gives off light, it appears like the sun and they will be drawn to it. he may not recognize the ceramic one as a basking spot.

 

[jwlerza22]

copy

Well, I will change the supplement dusting as you have suggested, however, do we think this is a respiratory issue or supplement issue? His cage pretty much dries out in between waterings except for the drainage floor, although he is never down there. I thought every two hours for one minute would be a good amount, the humidity rarely gets above 65 and when its at ita driest, its approx 45.

 

[jwlerza22]

also

As far as climbing sticks, he has 2 five foot vines, 2 llarge live plants, 2 fake hanging plants and a large manzanita branch. He seems plenty happy with them. I've seen a significant amount of enclosures with far less.

 

[xraygirl]

for your supplements, you want to dust the feeders with calcium WITHOUT D3 everyday, and calcium WITH D3 twice a week. The multivitamin should only be used twice a month.

Most folks with panthers and veilds use the D3 and the multivitamin twice a month alternating them. (D3 one day one week, M.V on day one week, D3 one day one week, M.V one day one week) Non-D3 calcium should be used everyday.


Too much D3 can cause issues!


Change your bulb out to a regular house bulb, 60 watt at first and adjust as needed.

Also, try giving him a bigger variety of feeders, like silkworms, hornworms, crickets, and maybe some butterworms for a little treat every now and then.

 

[jwlerza22]

I do not mean to be rude, but I think we are getting sidetracked here with the supplement.

My question is: Do we think this is URI related? I understand the suggestions on D3, but that does not seem to be related to this symptom, or does it?

 

[ridgebax1]

I would expect the clicking noise to occur regardless of movement. It would be more likely to be associated with his breathing. None the less I would pay close attention to him to make sure it does not increase. It is possible that improper supplementation could in a round about way lead to URI. If the animal is not getting the proper nutrition his body and immune system may not be working as it should making him susceptible to illness secondary to stress. It is really hard to say or know for sure with these guys as they are very adept at hiding signs of illness. It might be wise to have a vet check him over. A well visit should not be very costly and would give the vet a baseline if the chameleon becomes more symptomatic.
Another suggestion (which has nothing to do with URI), I would get rid of the Croton. It is a member of the Euphorbia family which are pretty much across the board, toxic (castor plant=ricin; poinsettia) although the subfamily to which it belongs is not deemed toxic but I would not want to take a chance on it. It is not listed on either chameleon safe plant list. I also agree that you could add a little more leafy cover and additional branches just to provide a greater range for thermoregulation.

 

[sharp229]

I would agree with most of the other suggestions. You should only need a CHE (ceramic heat element) at night if the temperature drops below 50F. A standard incandescent house bulb is best for a basking light. He may not be regulating his temperature properly if he does not realize where the heat is.

I also would recommend removing the croton as suggested by ridgebax1 as it is on this toxic plant list:
http://www.chameleonsonline.com/toxic-plants.php

It sounds like the only evidence of RI you are seeing is popping sounds? Does he hold his head up a lot, have extra mucous, gape when not hot, swallow constantly, etc?

He looks pretty good in the pictures.

 

[jwlerza22]

Ridgebax and sharp, thank you for the advice. I changed his calcium/d3 dustings to what has been recommended now and I added one more manzanita to higher elevation for heat/uvb regulation. Also ordered a uvb 10.0 and a basking lamp. He does not have any mucus, gum discoloration, no random mouth gaping and appears to otherwise to be completely fine besides the clicking/popping. Just wanted to jump on it quick in case it was the beginning of an URI. I also ordered some ReptAid just in case. He is getting some time near the hot steamy shower for a nebulizer effect as well.

As far as the croton goes, I have read very mixed reviews on it. I have had success in the past with them and some forun surfing states many other people have success as well. He doesnt bite at the leaves, but I will just continue to monitor it. He has been with the croton for over a month now.

 

[ridgebax1]

Yeah I have read mixed reviews about croton as well; I would err on the side of caution and remove it. Panthers are much less likely to eat the leaves from the plant than veileds are but still just in case...

 

[jwlerza22]

Update On BG

Well, it has been over 10 days and none of his symptoms have increased or decreased. I also started him on ReptAid 9 days ago just in case. He still seems plenty active and he is eating like normal. What is the usual onset of URI's? It seems like he would have worsened by this point already. Any input appreciated. Thank you.

 

[zlew]

Well, if it looks like early stages of MBD, then supplementation could have a big effect.

 

[ridgebax1]

Well, if it looks like early stages of MBD, then supplementation could have a big effect.

I do not see any evidence of MBD in the pictures. His limbs are nice and straight and he seems to carry himself well while walking. If he had MBD I would expect some bowing of his forearms or upper arms. There is a sticky in the health clinic which discusses MBD at length.

I am trying to remember with Clouseau he started with stomatitis which progressed into a respiratory infection. He had been on antibiotics for about 10 days with no change in symptoms. At first he seemed to get better then remained symptomatic. After about 10 days on antibiotics for the mouth rot he developed respiratory symptoms and despite being on powerful antibiotics he continued to decline and passed after about a week of treatment for the URI. Since he has not gotten sicker he is probably OK but even so these guys are notorious for concealing signs of infection and can go from apparently healthy to dead in a very short period of time. Just keep a close eye and if you seen any of the other signs, gaping, excess mucus, keeping head tilted up I would not hesitate to take him to a vet. Good luck.

 

[jwlerza22]

I don't see where you are getting MbD from, he doesn't seem to be showing any signs of that at all. It has been over a month: color, physique, activity, input and output all seem within normal limits. Even had a healthy shed last week. Am I out of the woods yet?

 

[Sanababit]

I read on this forum that chameleons being reptiles get sick really slow, and their recovery is slow too, so patience is a virtue in this hobby, and keep monitoring him

Sana