Advise on hand feeding/handling

[jcarlsen]

What do you mean by "shadowed"? Do you mean where they melt away from you on a branch and put the branch between you and them?

If that's what you mean, he is correct. You are training him to respond to your presence with a survival-strategy of avoidance behavior.

To try to put it simply, behavior is always triggered by a stimulus. If the consequence of the behavior is rewarded, the behavior is increased or maintained. If there is no reward to the behavior, it is extinguished. Behavior is never in a vacuum. There is the antecedent (the stimulus that triggers the behavior), the behavior, and the consequences. It is the consequences that determines if the behavior continues and at what intensity.

Any behavior that is learned and repeated has a perceived benefit for the animal doing the behaving. Keep that in mind. Even if you don't see the benefit, it is there or the behavior would not continue. Any behavior that is repeated and learned becomes harder to end.

To analyse your avoidance behavior, look at it like this, and this is a really rough analysis. You can get really scientific and analyse the behavior before the avoidance behavior by looking for tension or an almost imperceptible shift in body posture before they move around the branch.

Antecedant: You moving into close proximity (there will probably be an exact distance, and it will help in the long run if you know what that distance is).

Behavior: Chameleon "squirrels" around a perch.

Consequence: Chameleon escapes you.

If you first analyse the behavior and the triggers and consequences, you'll be a lot further ahead of solving the training problem. Bear in mind that two identical behaviors might have different stimuli and different rewards.

Bill, you should not have encouraged me!

Thanks for elaborating on this. Jasper will rarely shadow if his cage is closed. I do notice that if I'm on the side of the room grabbing something (so facing the side of his cage) and then have to walk by his cage, he'll sometimes shadow. He will also do this occasionally if I approach the front quickly. There are other times where I can put my face right up to the screen and he won't do anything.

If I open the cage door while he's on an open branch, he'll shadow...do you suggest avoiding opening the door during this time and waiting for him to move? Seems the most logical approach.

I'll work on studying his response to what I'm doing and from what distance. One thing I've been doing is getting in the habit of opening his door right before the lights come on (he's usually still curled up) and then going and sitting on the other side of the room to eat my cereal, while facing away from him. Kinda hoping that'll get him used to seeing me around more, at least before I leave for work.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thanks for elaborating on this. Jasper will rarely shadow if his cage is closed. I do notice that if I'm on the side of the room grabbing something (so facing the side of his cage) and then have to walk by his cage, he'll sometimes shadow. He will also do this occasionally if I approach the front quickly. There are other times where I can put my face right up to the screen and he won't do anything.

If I open the cage door while he's on an open branch, he'll shadow...do you suggest avoiding opening the door during this time and waiting for him to move? Seems the most logical approach.

I'll work on studying his response to what I'm doing and from what distance. One thing I've been doing is getting in the habit of opening his door right before the lights come on (he's usually still curled up) and then going and sitting on the other side of the room to eat my cereal, while facing away from him. Kinda hoping that'll get him used to seeing me around more, at least before I leave for work.

I think once you start observing and thinking about how your chameleon perceives the world you'll start to behave in less threatening ways to him. By your being less threatening, he will feel less less threatened and the corollary is that he will tolerate more close contact. And so you both teach each other how to behave. Behavior isn't a one-way street, it is a conversation between the learner and the trainer.

Move slowly around him, but move right out of his space at the first sign of his discomfort. If you observe closely, you will see behaviors earlier. Learn the behaviors that are stress behaviors and get out of his space at the first sign they are starting.

It doesn't take much to get a chameleon more relaxed. Part of their responses to you will be driven by their personality, and that has a major genetic component.

To give you and example of the range of responses, I have 8 recently imported wild caughts of varying ages. Four were so flighty they would fling themselves to escape me. I worried one gravid female would hurt herself trying to escape when I even approached the cage. They've all had a massive parasite load that has been very difficult to eradicate. Some have been treated 25 times (Giardia is really hard to get rid of.) From the chameleon's perspective, they were in the clutches of a predator and almost were eaten 25 times. I haven't done with them what I've preached to you--I've just grabbed them up and medicated them.

Four will hand feed even with all my abusive handling. I can put my hand in their enclosure and pick an insect off their back that is annoying them. They remain relaxed as long as I don't look directly at them and am quick about my intrusions.

Of the four spooky ones, I've noticed that three are decidedly less spooky. One looks as if I could hand feed him if I spent a little time on it. Instead of trying to commit suicide by diving into the bushes, they hold their ground or slowly move off when I put silk worms on branches. There is a much longer lag time between my hand in their enclosure and their moving off. I don't know about the fourth as he is on loan at the moment. Before he left, I would say he pretty much hated me (he's the poor guy who was treated 25 times) and I deserved his contempt.

The only thing I was careful of was to keep my contact with them at a minimum, move slowly and try never to look directly at them. If I felt one was particularly stressed, I might block in his cage so he didn't see me at all except when I had to medicate him. I didn't spend any time taming them.

So, even with bad and insensitive handling--and there is no other way to describe grabbing up a chameleon to medicate it--they do get habituated to people with time, even the spooky ones.

Hope that helps.

 

[jcarlsen]

I think once you start observing and thinking about how your chameleon perceives the world you'll start to behave in less threatening ways to him. By your being less threatening, he will feel less less threatened and the corollary is that he will tolerate more close contact. And so you both teach each other how to behave. Behavior isn't a one-way street, it is a conversation between the learner and the trainer.

Move slowly around him, but move right out of his space at the first sign of his discomfort. If you observe closely, you will see behaviors earlier. Learn the behaviors that are stress behaviors and get out of his space at the first sign they are starting.

It doesn't take much to get a chameleon more relaxed. Part of their responses to you will be driven by their personality, and that has a major genetic component.

To give you and example of the range of responses, I have 8 recently imported wild caughts of varying ages. Four were so flighty they would fling themselves to escape me. I worried one gravid female would hurt herself trying to escape when I even approached the cage. They've all had a massive parasite load that has been very difficult to eradicate. Some have been treated 25 times (Giardia is really hard to get rid of.) From the chameleon's perspective, they were in the clutches of a predator and almost were eaten 25 times. I haven't done with them what I've preached to you--I've just grabbed them up and medicated them.

Four will hand feed even with all my abusive handling. I can put my hand in their enclosure and pick an insect off their back that is annoying them. They remain relaxed as long as I don't look directly at them and am quick about my intrusions.

Of the four spooky ones, I've noticed that three are decidedly less spooky. One looks as if I could hand feed him if I spent a little time on it. Instead of trying to commit suicide by diving into the bushes, they hold their ground or slowly move off when I put silk worms on branches. There is a much longer lag time between my hand in their enclosure and their moving off. I don't know about the fourth as he is on loan at the moment. Before he left, I would say he pretty much hated me (he's the poor guy who was treated 25 times) and I deserved his contempt.

The only thing I was careful of was to keep my contact with them at a minimum, move slowly and try never to look directly at them. If I felt one was particularly stressed, I might block in his cage so he didn't see me at all except when I had to medicate him. I didn't spend any time taming them.

So, even with bad and insensitive handling--and there is no other way to describe grabbing up a chameleon to medicate it--they do get habituated to people with time, even the spooky ones.

Hope that helps.

You've been incredibly helpful, jajean. I've only had Jasper for 5-6 weeks and he's still getting used to me as well as me getting used to him. I'm going to work on figuring out what irks him and try to avoid doing that as best I can.

I also suspect he'll maybe chill a bit more when he moves into his adult enclosure, where he'll have more room to roam and hide if he wants to, and my hand won't seem as big to him in there.

One quick follow up question is about getting him on his plant and such. I believe I mentioned before, but I've tried two ways. Putting the plant in front of his cage, waiting for him to get on, then picking up the plant with him on it and moving it to direct sunlight OR placing a stick for him to get onto, and then taking just the stick with him on it or coaxing him from it to my hand to carry to the plant. Any thoughts on which of these you think is better? Also, what about getting him back into his enclosure when it's time, or should I really only choose a time where he might willingly go back on his own. I'm sure that'd be ideal, but if I have to leave at some point, I've gotta get him back. Let me know your thoughts...no rush!

Thanks again!

 

[MissLissa]

jajeanpierre, are you familiar with Dr. Susan Friedman? I've heard her explain the A-B-C contingency in almost those exact terms! I have to admit, I almost cried tears of joy at your responses to the "chameleon training tip". It's not often that I come across someone on a forum who is familiar with applied behavioural analysis!

 

[jajeanpierre]

jajeanpierre, are you familiar with Dr. Susan Friedman? I've heard her explain the A-B-C contingency in almost those exact terms! I have to admit, I almost cried tears of joy at your responses to the "chameleon training tip". It's not often that I come across someone on a forum who is familiar with applied behavioural analysis!

Whew! I got it right.

Of course I'm familiar with Dr. Susan Friemman--I have parrots. Did you ever see the video by Barbara Heidenreich, Training Your Parrot For The Veterinary Exam? I lent her that Blue Throat.

I sent you a private message.

 

[jajeanpierre]

You've been incredibly helpful, jajean. I've only had Jasper for 5-6 weeks and he's still getting used to me as well as me getting used to him. I'm going to work on figuring out what irks him and try to avoid doing that as best I can.

I also suspect he'll maybe chill a bit more when he moves into his adult enclosure, where he'll have more room to roam and hide if he wants to, and my hand won't seem as big to him in there.

One quick follow up question is about getting him on his plant and such. I believe I mentioned before, but I've tried two ways. Putting the plant in front of his cage, waiting for him to get on, then picking up the plant with him on it and moving it to direct sunlight OR placing a stick for him to get onto, and then taking just the stick with him on it or coaxing him from it to my hand to carry to the plant. Any thoughts on which of these you think is better? Also, what about getting him back into his enclosure when it's time, or should I really only choose a time where he might willingly go back on his own. I'm sure that'd be ideal, but if I have to leave at some point, I've gotta get him back. Let me know your thoughts...no rush!

Thanks again!

In a perfect training world you would never force an animal in any way. Most home situations don't really allow for that perfect set up.

So, here are some of my thoughts on your dilemma. You really have to weigh the pros and cons and pick the one that not only gives you the most benefit but does the least harm. Every negative interaction with the animal does harm. You want to develop an animal with the resilience to cope.

So, you want to get the animal out in natural sunlight, which is a really wonderful thing to do. UVB bulbs, even the best, are not as good as natural sunlight.

Is it practical to move the whole cage? Whenever you are moving an animal in a crate, you want to keep it level and not cause any sudden movement to the cage, especially when you put it down.

I like your idea of using a plant to move him. He has good footing and can hide in the bush. He will feel much safer in the bush than he will out in the open on a stick. I always worry they'll bail (a chameleon defense strategy) if they are being carried on a stick. Remember, however you get him on and off the plant is likely to be with the use of aversives. You know they are aversive to him because he is avoiding them. You want to minimize aversives. Herding him gently onto a plant or a stick is an aversive. Not as big an aversive as grabbing him, but it still is using fear to move him. The few times your chameleon has a negative interaction with you will not likely undo all the good trust-building you have done as long as the negative stuff is rare and the good stuff the norm.

Few people think about what they are doing from the animal's point of view. I'm not even sure it is possible to care for animals without using aversives unless you have a completely self-contained system and never have a time constraint. You want to minimize negative interactions and that takes some planning. Sometimes you do that by not taking the animal out because you know you don't have the time to get the animal back in his cage in a minimally aversive way.

One other comment about unfiltered sunlight. Do not ever leave a chameleon on a plant outside unattended. Aside from them escaping, there are a lot of daylight predators who would be happy for a chameleon snack. Some of those predators are brave enough to snatch your chameleon right off your shoulder. Coopers and Sharp Shinned hawks are incredibly bold.

 

[JHumm]

I may or may not try the hand sleeping thing, but not without the endorsement of a more senior member here.

As for the hand feeding question, I think the blog means to say that hand feeding as a primary method of feeding will cause a lack of exercise and hunting abilities. At least that's my thinking.

Thats what I thought at first, but cup feeding wouldn't provide any more exercise/hunting activities than hand feeding would.

 

[Carlton]

Forcing an animal to submit to an aversive stimulus (you) has a lot of fall out for the animal. What this person is recommending is called "flooding." You flood the animal with the frightening stimuli until they give up and submit. Think of the damage to trust that might have on an animal truly afraid of you. Flooding has not proved to be a permanent fix to phobias as the fear often spontaneously returns.

What an odd idea. I would never use this falling asleep on hand approach with a cham, in fact, if one of mine ever started closing its eyes/freezing while being held that's a big sign to put it back in its territory and leave it alone to recover! With an animal that desires your approval for something maybe this adversive approach has a chance, but with a prey animal that doesn't care whether you like its behavior or not (its going to do what it knows how to do either way) it just seems cruel.

 

[jcarlsen]

Thats what I thought at first, but cup feeding wouldn't provide any more exercise/hunting activities than hand feeding would.

I think the same rule of thumb applies to cup feeding. It's okay to do sometimes, but other times you gotta let your guy free hunt to keep him exercised and interested in his food.