Aflactoxicosis, crickets and moldy grain

[jamest0o0]

No no! I don't even have any ATM, I was just going to hook up @cyberlocc with a person that I know with them. @snitz427 would be an excellent place to get some too, I didn't know you had any available! No problem at all lol

 

[snitz427]

I dont. And if I did, im too afraid to open the lid let alone try to round those heathens up lol

 

[cyberlocc]

I dont. And if I did, im too afraid to open the lid let alone try to round those heathens up lol

Dang maybe a Vivarium species then? Instead of a bin? Maybe i wish I had room to keep all my roaches in Vivs, and soon I will, but today not so much hahaha.

 

[snitz427]

Dang maybe a Vivarium species then? Instead of a bin? Maybe i wish I had room to keep all my roaches in Vivs, and soon I will, but today not so much hahaha.

It will be fine when the time comes to upgrade them. For now, more cork bark will help. They're in a decent sized gasket sealed container, but I didn't anticipate them being so active above the soil. I'm going to rig up an access panel so that when I do round them up there's only a small opening.

 

[jamest0o0]

It will be fine when the time comes to upgrade them. For now, more cork bark will help. They're in a decent sized gasket sealed container, but I didn't anticipate them being so active above the soil. I'm going to rig up an access panel so that when I do round them up there's only a small opening.

I remember the few I had, within a second of opening a bin like 3 flew out

 

[snitz427]

I remember the few I had, within a second of opening a bin like 3 flew out

Me too! One wizzed right past my head! Roach barrier and extreme caution after that!

 

[cyberlocc]

Me too! One wizzed right past my head! Roach barrier and extreme caution after that!

Jeez yep straight to Viv for those guys lol.

I wish I could put all my roaches in Vivs and one day I will .

Our soon to be new bedroom has a room in it, that use to be I guess a walk in closet, it's like 5x8, I am going to turn that into a bug room ( thought about a Cham room, but I would rather have Chams where we can see them). I got the wife approval, she wants a large closet furniture thing (I forget what they are called now) instead. Plus the bedroom is huge, it's 25x18, so we have room for that thing.

I was supposed to renovate that room this summer, to our new bedroom so our son can have his own, but we put it off to next year. Right now, with no one in it, it's not worth heating so no bug room till the bedroom is done.

When its a bedroom, I am so thing the fishtanks, and using Vivariums for every bug, except like Isopods and such, that just would rather have deep dirt.

 

[snitz427]

got a pic of your roach vivarium idea? I cant visualize it. I mean I can, but the image in my head isn't very secure.


On the toxicity topic, why is everyone convinced roaches cannot carry parasites? I would think any living thing is a potential host for a parasite. Since roaches eat the same gut loads, would they really be immune to this?

 

[cyberlocc]

got a pic of your roach vivarium idea? I cant visualize it. I mean I can, but the image in my head isn't very secure.


On the toxicity topic, why is everyone convinced roaches cannot carry parasites? I would think any living thing is a potential host for a parasite. Since roaches eat the same gut loads, would they really be immune to this?

Not Parasites, Alfatoxins are mold. Roaches are designed to eat mold I think, where as crickets are not. I think that's the difference.

As to the Vivarium, just a Vivarium instead of an aquarium.

So like this, with opening doors, like an Exoterra instead of an Aquarium.

 

[snitz427]

@cyberlocc Opening doors!?! ARE YOU CRAZY!!? That's like opening the gates of hell with these things!!


Yes, sorry, the toxins are mold related, but one more reason everyone touts the roaches. I have no doubt crickets are disgusting little things... but I don't know the science behind why it is believed that roaches are not carriers or parasites or would be immune to this. the toxins seem to affect other animals and humans pretty severely

 

[jamest0o0]

got a pic of your roach vivarium idea? I cant visualize it. I mean I can, but the image in my head isn't very secure.


On the toxicity topic, why is everyone convinced roaches cannot carry parasites? I would think any living thing is a potential host for a parasite. Since roaches eat the same gut loads, would they really be immune to this?

I think the idea is that, roaches were also designed to have powerful immune systems and live off mostly anything. I'm sure it's possible for them to carry things, but this helps them resist a lot. Roaches also clean themselves in a way. So I guess it's not impossible, but much less likely.

 

[JacksJill]

I would never drop an infected chameleon poop into a bin of roaches and then feed them off to test this theory (neither would any of you).
It would depend on the ability of the insect to digest the oocyst I don't have any way to test that.

 

[jamest0o0]

@cyberlocc Opening doors!?! ARE YOU CRAZY!!? That's like opening the gates of hell with these things!!


Yes, sorry, the toxins are mold related, but one more reason everyone touts the roaches. I have no doubt crickets are disgusting little things... but I don't know the science behind why it is believed that roaches are not carriers or parasites or would be immune to this. the toxins seem to affect other animals and humans pretty severely

Don't quote me on this, but that's also the thing with the toxins... some people, most likely healthy uncompromised people, aren't as vulnerable. They're probably also less vulnerable to carry something? I guess it's a longshot to equate that with roaches, but that's my thoughts on it.

 

[cyberlocc]

@cyberlocc Opening doors!?! ARE YOU CRAZY!!? That's like opening the gates of hell with these things!!


Yes, sorry, the toxins are mold related, but one more reason everyone touts the roaches. I have no doubt crickets are disgusting little things... but I don't know the science behind why it is believed that roaches are not carriers or parasites or would be immune to this. the toxins seem to affect other animals and humans pretty severely

Like James said. Roaches have extremely powerful immune systems.

Their is a big news deal going on right now, that Roaches are becoming extremely restiant to insceticides, and soon we may not be able to kill them on a pest control front.

Also like James said, they are super clean inside and out. Roaches are the cleanest insect, they spend 90% of their time grooming. We think roaches are dirty, and the funny part is the roach thinks we are the dirty ones. They have adapted to deal with the toxins of mold and such, as they eat it in the wild.

Just like how kingsnakes can eat cobras that's venom would kill anything else.

 

[jamest0o0]

Roaches and their cockroach milk, taking over the world

 

[cyberlocc]

Don't quote me on this, but that's also the thing with the toxins... some people, most likely healthy uncompromised people, aren't as vulnerable. They're probably also less vulnerable to carry something? I guess it's a longshot to equate that with roaches, but that's my thoughts on it.

I don't think it's a long shot at all.

Crickets are designed to live in large open fields and in trees, where they are not exposed to molds and bacteria especially not confined with it. So their bodies are not accustomed to fighting it or dealing with.

Roaches are designed to live in it. So they have adapted to deal with it.


Wild crickets eat grains, right off the plant, it's not moldy it's still alive and green.

Roaches eat grains that are rotting and decaying and covered in mold.

Isopods thrive in decay as well, they eat mold they can live off solely mold. Same with like tree snail's, they eat algae and mold off trees. Yet the Cham can eat these with no I'll effects, because the bugs have adapted to expel toxins and accept nutrients from the mold. Things have a cycle like that to deal with deadly substance in their diet.


It's the same as Poision Dart Frogs, notice they are kept? But how can that be. How can we keep a deadly frog and touch it, and keep it our house.

It's the same principal. Poision Dart Frogs in the wild are extremely deadly, however the reason is when they eat the Red Fire Ants, their body has an anti toxin that mixes with the ant venom to make sure they are okay, and the 2 toxins then combined excrete through it's skin, to kill predators. So they use their preys venom, to create a protection system for themselves, whilst becoming immune to the Ants Poison.

Take away the ants, and you take away their protection system and thus we have a safe for us to keep frog. As long as it doesn't eat the ants, you won't die for picking up your let frog.

 

[snitz427]

these aflactoxins are crazy, their effects can be passed on through generations and through mutations. Its not clear from what I have found if that is only while a level of toxins is high, or if the damage is permanent. It apparently takes repeated exposure.

I am skeptical of the roach theory... maybe they are less prone to parasites but I can't fathom how they would be immune to a highly contagious, parasite that thrives in soil and water. Don't mean to be argumentative, but I work for lawyers so its in my blood. As @JacksJill said, there is only one way to find out! Not it!

 

[JacksJill]

I have huge admiration of roaches and see crickets as a necessary evil. I just can't guarantee that they A) won't transfer any toxin (but I'm sure they will survive it) and B) that they won't transfer coccidia but they are probably less likey to if they keep as clean as described.

 

[cyberlocc]

these aflactoxins are crazy, their effects can be passed on through generations and through mutations. Its not clear from what I have found if that is only while a level of toxins is high, or if the damage is permanent. It apparently takes repeated exposure.

I am skeptical of the roach theory... maybe they are less prone to parasites but I can't fathom how they would be immune to a highly contagious, parasite that thrives in soil and water. Don't mean to be argumentative, but I work for lawyers so its in my blood. As @JacksJill said, there is only one way to find out! Not it!

You keeping saying parasite. Are we talking parasite or the Alfatoxins? I told you why the Alfatoxins didn't affect them. They have adapted to deal with it, where crickets have not.

However the parasites are another matter. Roaches can get parasites, but only the parasites that have adapted to infect them. They can carry pinworms, however Coccidia they are resistant too.

Some parasites don't even care if they can infect you. Such as Rat Lungworm. A Chameleon much like a human, is not a parasitic host. But in the case of the Rat Lungworm it doesn't matter. They on the road to parastite infection travel into your brain. That's what they do, they go into the brains of snail's (usually living in the eyes) and take over the mind of the snail, to make birds swoop them up and become a parasite. This doesn't work on the reptile, or human, however while they are in your brain they do damage on their way to death. Which can cause menageitis in humans.

 

[snitz427]

These toxins are apparently present in wild living vegetation as well harvested and/or decaying vegetation... primarily in field crops, so right in a cricket's power house.

But in the instance of cocciddia, where the parasite can be transmitted through contact, not ingestion, then the roaches' immune system would have little effect on that (other than not further increasing the parasite load by carrying it in their gut, too)