animal planet propaganda

[Kevy Baby]

I searched and I can't find an upcoming showing

 

[Montium]

You should really read the first link that I provided.

It wasn't the owners at all (responsible or irresponsible) that caused the problem in Florida- it was a hurricane in the 90s that blew some importer facilities to smithereens and some pythons, iguanas, etc got out. Read the link to see why they know this is so from genetic evidence.

It's name was Andrew and it made Katrina look like a sun shower, the difference is Miami isn't 18ft BELOW sea level.

As a longtime resident of south florida ( read decades ) Andrew didn't help in the least but the invasion started a long time before that. Low grade importers would often dump sick animals rather than deal with vet bills. Hell the zoo is still missing animals from Andrew.

The sensationalist media would have you believe " there are no natural predators for these invaders " OMG run for the hills!!!! While they are correct that the specific predator might not be here, there are certainly predators here that eat them.

Case in point the Green Iguana, I saw one being eaten by a hawk on a fence post the other day on the turnpike. Natural predator? who knows but it was tearing it up lol.

So folks can press the cold, clammy panic button for all it's worth but I think nature will deal with it. Folks are just freaked out they might have a large predator that isn't an alligator, cougar, bear etc etc to deal with, tough titty.

 

[Sang]

i gotta be honest, i strongly agreed and disagreed with this program...

they did start one thing, they should be micro transmitting all large species of snakes, and you should have to have a permit to own.


while i don't think the banning of these animals will do anything, except create a black market trade for yet another thing in the US.

 

[fluxlizard]

they should be micro transmitting all large species of snakes, and you should have to have a permit to own.

Why is that, and do you think it should be a national mandate?

microchipping has caused tumors and other complications in dogs (the microchips sometimes migrate around the body).

Personally, I don't think it is necessary and it is not comparable to laws with other more dangerous pets like dogs and horses. (Not that I believe those should be chipped and permitted nationally either).

There is no national law stating dogs have to have permits (up to the local government) or be microchipped, and I'd much rather come across a large python than most medium sized dogs. At least the 15 ft python isn't going to chase you down the street or attack your kid for sport... But we don't see dogs being threatened to be illegal.

For that matter- If the devil made us choose pythons or kitty cats I'd much rather have pythons on the loose than kitty cats and dogs. Darn cats kill all sorts of things- probably about any small cute potentially endangered critter that is threatened by a python would be more threatened by warm blooded energetic hungry kitty cats run amok. But we don't see cats threatened to be illegal either.

Of course, in a perfect world I'd prefer cats stay out of the wild and dogs and pythons too. I'm just saying the legislation is based on sensationalism and isn't fair.

 

[Syn]

I say release pythons to eat strays. Can 'o worms anyone?

 

[Texas Panther Man]

You know a few irresponsible owners/keepers and importers also. Gave the media and federal agencies the spark to ignite this firestorm. 99.999 percent of people that keep snakes and reptiles are responsible and take great care of their animals. Lets face it most of paid a real premium for our animals.

Now we have a Senator involved in herp ownership. Trying to propose laws against owning snakes. The real joke is our gov will prob waste millions on this propsal to irradicate the pythons in ENP. Only to tell us 15-20yrs later that we are fighting a losing battle. Short of nuking the whole ENP how could you possibly catch &euthanize every wild python in florida.

 

[nightcrawler]

You know a few irresponsible owners/keepers and importers also. Gave the media and federal agencies the spark to ignite this firestorm. 99.999 percent of people that keep snakes and reptiles are responsible and take great care of their animals.

I highly disagree with this. There are so many irresponsible and uneducated people out there that buy these animals on impulse, and get bored with them so they give them away, sell them, donate to a shelter, or let it go in the wild. If there were more responsible people out there you wouldn't see so many large snakes, large iguanas, and tortoises in animal welfare programs or shelters. How many pet stores you go in treat chameleons right? How many chain pet stores get their pets not from puppy mills? Not many. How many people give off incorrect information about animals they think they know about at these said pet stores? Plenty.

Whats so bad about having to have a permit to own something that is
1) already invasive in FL,
2) a large animal by the "social norm" for reptiles
3) A natural predator

You have to have a permit in Illinois to have endangered or threatened reptiles that are native to Illinois, and in my herpetology class there is a guy who has the permit and has some reptiles. My T.A. has a permit to breed Alligator snapping turtles. Not really that big of a deal to them. Might be a pain in the butt but it also might be better of for the species in the long run. Have you thought of all the irresponsible people who would not buy something they have to have a permit for. If you are willing to apply for a permit then you will more then likely provide better care then someone who is less willing to do so.

The difference between reptile and mammals is that dogs and cats are cute cuddly and have been pets way longer then some of these large reptiles, so the social norm for accepting them as normal pets has been established and developed into a common thing. Also sense they are so common, that is why there are more attacks from thos said animals. If one if every 2 or 3 homes own a dog, then of course there are going to be more attacks then say a python who are in maybe 1 out of 100 if not less homes. Im not saying that pythons are less dangerous then dogs or vise versa, I am just saying that most things are not really comparable. When I was 9 I got bit in the face by a large dog and was in the hospital or 3 days. Have I ever been bitten by a python, no, but I have encountered 100 times more dogs then pythons in my life. Dogs are dangerous, but you cant argue that they are comparable to reptiles in how dangerous by how many attacks per year there are alone.


As for the guy who cut the part of the tail off of the chameleon, that was "wild recon". Ive watched that episode. He cut it off for DNA samples, not for show. Science has some casualties but he is a non kill sample taker with all the animals he takes samples of.

I have yet to see this show, but I am sure that this show was supposed to show the bad side to all these crazy herp people. What would be the point of showing people who house dogs correctly in a puppy mill special? You have to show the worst stuff and the most of the worst stuff so that people will think about their actions next time. Maybe people wont just impulsively buy a large snake or a puppy from a pet store if they see how these animals are kept. Maybe they will inquire about where the animals in said pet stores came from before buying. But that is my speculation only.

 

[fluxlizard]

If there were more responsible people out there you wouldn't see so many large snakes, large iguanas, and tortoises in animal welfare programs or shelters.

Actually- I'll respond to this one.

Firstly- there are far more dogs and cats in shelters than lizards and snakes and tortoises. So again, a law that applies to lizards and snakes should at least have a fair counterpart to dogs and cats if it is to resemble justice. So, if it's just a matter responsible owners- I'd say there are waaaaay more irresponsible dog and cat owners out there. (heck there are even way more irresponsible non-owners- old crazy ladies who feed cats by dumpsters so they keep reproducing...)

Secondly- How many people go to a shelter when they want one of these animals? Hardly anyone. 99.99% of the population don't even know it's an option. And then if you do happen to be the .01% of the population who learns about a shelter and decides maybe they will try going that route, nearly all shelters for these herps are run by nuts who want you to do the following:

1- pay an "adoption fee" that often costs more than the actual reptile if you were to go to a pet shop and buy it retail.

2- take a "test" to convince them that you know how to take care of the animal (which is actually OK in theory except that you may have differences of opinion about certain aspects of husbandry)

3- agree that in spite of the adoption fee, the animal does not belong to you, and may be reclaimed at any time by the "rescuer".

4- agree to allow them on your private property at any any reasonable hour without notice to inspect the animal being adopted whenever they want.

5- agree to notify and possibly return the animal when it dies.

6- agree to never breed the animal.

7- agree never to sell the animal or rehome it. In the event that you no longer want the animal for some reason, you must return it to the "rescuer" who presumably will then sell it above retail again (or is that rent it? Or is that find it a loving home?)

*= or =*

You can go buy one for less from somewhere and it belongs to you for real.

Now come on- You seriously wonder why they pile up at shelters?

Personally, I would love to take in some shelter animals myself. I've got the resources and facility to provide some happy endings. But after looking into a number of these shelters and learning what I would have to agree too, I became disgusted.

Many years ago, I worked at a pet shop when I was in my early 20s. We took in a number of unwanted iguanas and ball pythons when I worked there, and patched them up (if necessary) and re-homed them and made a nice little profit in return (usually we bought them back or took them in for almost nothing or maybe $20 in store credit, we resold nearly always in less than 3 weeks for $50 or $60). We had no problems finding new homes for them and were able to show people what they were getting into (because usually these were on the wild side and needed some socializing) and educate them about how to care for them. There was a woman in the area who ran a "shelter" for iguanas who had all kinds of problems finding homes for hers. The problem- nobody knew she was there!

Whats so bad about having to have a permit to own something that is
1) already invasive in FL,

They are alien, they are not invasive (which means destructive of the local ecosystem). Did you bother reading the links I provided earlier in this thread?

2) a large animal by the "social norm" for reptiles

I don't know what that means- sentence doesn't make sense.

Large for reptiles? Yes. Large compared to dogs? Well the burms are, the rest aren't...

3) A natural predator

So are dogs and cats, only they eat much more being warm blooded and all. And dogs and cats kill for sport on top of that.

You have to have a permit in Illinois to have endangered or threatened reptiles that are native to Illinois

Well, that's more along the lines of what I agree with. States protecting their threatened animals.

Im not saying that pythons are less dangerous then dogs or vise versa,

I am. I've been around both all my life and I'd much rather accidently happen across an angry python in the wilds of florida than I would an angry dog. The python will stand his ground or try to hide if he is able. The dog will chase you down and maul you. Maybe just for kicks. Pythons might kill a baby for food- a dog will kill a baby for sport and move on to the next baby.

Dogs are far, far more dangerous.

As far as socially acceptable- big deal. The constitution of the US is supposed to protect the individual from society's unfair prejudice. Those of us who enjoy keeping reptiles as pets would like the chance for them to become more common and to develop into a common thing like you say has happened for dogs and cats. And these sorts of restrictions will prevent that.

You ask what is so bad about having to have a permit- What is bad is that it kills the hobby. Aussies are 20 years behind us in keeping and breeding their own native herps. The reason that is so, is because their laws and permits systems have discouraged people from getting involved in the hobby. We know more in the US about how to successfully breed most of their herps than they do in their own native land. That's pretty sad...

 

[Texas Panther Man]

I disagree wholeheartedly with you most of the people ive met involved in herps are conscientious keepers. If you would have read any of the articles Flux had attached you might understand some of whats actually happening.
If there are all these herp keepers dumping reptiles as your stating there would be sightings all the time in other states! We have a climate here in Texas that would support pythons. There are 1000's of python owners and breeders in Texas I havent heard or read any news reports of dumped snakes being found. So what your saying then is that all the irresponsible owners all live in Florida.

You may want more goverment in your life. But most of us would agree its not a good thing. Today its pythons tomorrow its the next killer invasive animal on the agenda.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Sorry Flux, I was typing while you responded.

 

[AReptile]

There is still no way you can tell me that out of all the burmese pythons in Florida that none of them had once been in the hands of an owner who let it go because it is too big, was unable to care for it, got bored of it, etc even with those articles which I did read. There are just too many of them in Florida to make a claim like that. An assumption needs to be made about what is contributing to the population increase of the invasive species. Even if the hurricane and illegal importing of these animals is the majority of the reason, I'm sure some of the pythons once belonged to a person. How often do you hear about a python getting out and killing someone's pet/ a small child? Quite a bit. So these animals can get out, and well obviously they have a clue how to hunt once left on their own otherwise they wouldn't be killing anything for whoever said the captive pythons who let go would perish in the wild.

TPM you said that there are no reports of pythons in Texas being let out by owners. As far as Texas and Florida go both have similar temperatures. But Florida is more like where the Burmese python's true habitat is hence why they are being found in Florida and not Texas. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Texas overall hotter with less desirable habitats for pythons usually found in jungles/swamps? This probably explains the lack of burmese pythons roaming in Texas.

 

[Kevy Baby]

First, I have to say I am pleased to see intelligent, thoughtful discussion on the topic!

I disagree wholeheartedly with you. Most of the people I've met involved in herps are conscientious keepers. If you would have read any of the articles Flux had attached you might understand some of whats actually happening.

I will confess to only having skimmed the articles and what I saw seemed intelligent and well researched.

But I wonder how many conscientious Rep keepers there are compared to bad seeds. Of course the vast majority of the people you meet are good keepers as presumably you are meeting these people at shows/meetings/etc. about how to care for your rep. You won't run into the kid at one of these gatherings who though it would be neat to have a lizard and promptly ignores it after a couple of weeks.

I was walking a friend's neighborhood a while back and happened to pass a 12-YO old (or so) kid who was playing with his Beardie out in front of his home with his friends (I have several years experience with Beardies and Beardie rescues). This poor creature (the Beardie) was painfully emaciated and looked like hell. The kid was not feeding it properly (one or two crickets a day he said) and upon further conversation, I found out the poor thing was in a 10 gallon tank (it should have been a 40 gallon minimum - 60 or more preferred) with no lighting (Beardies need UVB and a 95-105 degree basking spot). Thankfully, the mother was home and I made the boy get Mom so we could discuss what the Beardie needed. I was relieved that she listened - even thanking me for taking the time to explain this to her and apologizing for the condition the Beardie was in.

I tell this story not to get kudos, but to illustrate the problem: too many people do not know the special needs that reps have. They bought the Beardie from PetSmart or Petco and the store did not educate them on what was needed (they sold them the 10 gallon tank fer cryin' out loud!). I was fortunate to have caught one and was able to help, but I know there are many more Reps out there that are not so fortunate.

So how many bad Rep owners are there? Who knows. 1%? 10%? 30%? You can't police them all. But efforts to make them a little more protected are good, be it education (something I believe is lacking - PetSmart and Petco have no business selling reptiles) or something else. I tend to be a "smaller government" type of person, but intelligent licensing (or something similar) may not be a bad idea.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

If you would have read the article all the pythons that were captured by the National Park Service biologists had a very similar genetic bloodline. Hence they were all from the same group of snakes that were released during Hurrican Andrew. If you read the article from the president of the US assoc or Reptile Keepers. (USARK) You would know that all the snakes that were kept for study in Sc died after the recent cold snap. all the snakes the NPS captured being studied died in FLorida as well during this yrs cold weather.

So that being said why do we need the federal goverment telling us we need permits for our large snakes? We Dont! FLORIDA might need to consider adopting a permit system but passing a Federal act making the snakes in essence pharaiahs is not warranted.

There are not 1000's of people dumping their snakes. Its too easy to sell or just give one away. These snakes no matter how large are worth $$$. And the only way i could see someone dumping one is if it were seriously ill and the person didnt want to pay to get the animal treated. It such a case the animal would prob die a slowly of whatever it had.

 

[fluxlizard]

There is still no way you can tell me that out of all the burmese pythons in Florida that none of them had once been in the hands of an owner who let it go because it is too big, was unable to care for it, got bored of it, etc even with those articles which I did read.

Really? Then how do you explain the fact that they all came from the same genetic background and how do you explain the fact that they all came from the same geographic region of the world where they have not been imported from since the time of the hurricane? The ones imported all the years since are from a completely different geographic local than the ones found in Florida. How do you explain that if nobody can tell you different?

 

[nightcrawler]

Firstly- there are far more dogs and cats in shelters than lizards and snakes and tortoises.

This would be true if there were as many pythons as there are dogs and cats. The reason there is more is because of the amount of these animals in the US. If half of the population owns either a cat or dog then of course there are going to be more in shelters then there are reptiles. You cant really compare some animal that is owned by half the population with something that is owned by maybe at best 10% of the population.

So again, a law that applies to lizards and snakes should at least have a fair counterpart to dogs and cats if it is to resemble justice. So, if it's just a matter responsible owners- I'd say there are waaaaay more irresponsible dog and cat owners out there.

I agree. There is however going to be a much harder time to get this to pass because dogs and cats have been pets for hundreds of years. For something new (compared to how long some animals have been kept) like reptiles it wont be so hard. The majority of the general population dont own reptiles unlike cats and dogs.

Secondly- How many people go to a shelter when they want one of these animals? Hardly anyone. 99.99% of the population don't even know it's an option. And then if you do happen to be the .01% of the population who learns about a shelter and decides maybe they will try going that route, nearly all shelters for these herps are run by nuts

If breeding was by permit only then there would be less of a selection going around making shelters more popular to get their pets at because it might limit the amount of animals going around.

Also are we not nuts about our chams? Do we not screen our customers about their setup and everything before we sell our animals? Most of these herp shelters do it because they love herps. In loving herps and taking care of some of the herps, sometimes back from near death, you begin to get attached to them and of course you would want them to go to a new good home. And by making them agree to not breed them you are ensuring that no other animal of this sort is going to possibly go threw the same thing that that one did. You are also making the people who are just looking to get an easy adult to plug out some babies to make some cash. Its more of a incompetence deterrent.

"2) a large animal by the "social norm" for reptiles"
I don't know what that means- sentence doesn't make sense.

Large for reptiles? Yes. Large compared to dogs? Well the burms are, the rest aren't...

The social norm for a reptile is a small lizard or snake. The social norm is something that is generally accepted threw out society as the normal for the said society. Most people (the same 90%+ of the population who dont own reptiles) think that a 20 foot snake is not normal. A reptile is not a normal pet. It is becoming more common, but it is still a specialized pet. Large reptiles scare a lot of people. Large dogs scare people too, but dogs are more acceptable animals to have then a 20 foot snake. How many people get weird looks on here when they say they have chameleons? I bet no one ever gets a weird look for owning a dog.

are dogs and cats, only they eat much more being warm blooded and all. And dogs and cats kill for sport on top of that.

If there were no more people dogs would die out. They depend on humans for everything. They can not survive on their own. Cats can. Cats also are not as large as dogs so the small house cats as predators is thrown out. Dogs are not predators anymore.

I've been around both all my life and I'd much rather accidently happen across an angry python in the wilds of florida than I would an angry dog. The python will stand his ground or try to hide if he is able. The dog will chase you down and maul you. Maybe just for kicks. Pythons might kill a baby for food- a dog will kill a baby for sport and move on to the next baby.

This is a pretty ridiculous statement. As ive states before you cant compare dogs to snakes. A dog killing a baby for sport and then moving on to the next? Really? Sure there are some mean dogs out there but this is the kind of thinking that give snakes a bad rep. Don't thos same old crazy ladys think this about the 20 feet pythons? You are just grouping yourself into that category but on the other side. You are saying the most extreme possible circumstance just as they do. You can't really think that this would help anything if everyone would do this the whole time. You might feel that way but im sure there are plenty of people who would feel the opposite. Especially if maybe it was a large monitor, something they might never have come across in their life. The dog might be more dangerous but it doesn't mean that people would be more scared of it than the snake or monitor.

Dogs are far, far more dangerous.

I tried to keep my opinion of who is more dangerous out because it does no good to say who is more dangerous or not. I think dogs are very dangerous, when not trained or kept right. You cant train a python. Pythons are dangerous too but like you said its easier to get away from them.

You ask what is so bad about having to have a permit- What is bad is that it kills the hobby. Aussies are 20 years behind us in keeping and breeding their own native herps. The reason that is so, is because their laws and permits systems have discouraged people from getting involved in the hobby. We know more in the US about how to successfully breed most of their herps than they do in their own native land. That's pretty sad...

I never said anything about making all reptiles to require a permit to have. I think it would be better if the alien invasive species required permits. If it is required to have a permit for the invasive species then it will limit the number of potentially new individuals to get out into the alien population. If its not invasive in your state then you shouldn't be required to have a permit. The reason they have that system is obvious tho. What is more important the hobby or the ecosystem? People are thinking too much about the small scale of their own enjoyment over the overall effect. If you really think its too much of a hassle to get a permit for an animal you love then I don't think that you should have them. If you think of the ecosystem, your personal enjoyment does not mean a thing. I used to think that it would be cool if there were chameleons wandering around my yard, but I learned that my enjoyment is not worth the potential destruction of anything in my local ecosystem. Even if it does not harm the ecosystem to our knowledge it doesn't mean that it should be there. Invasive or alien, it still means not native and that is the main point. Future deterrence of more introduced species that do not belong.

So that being said why do we need the federal goverment telling us we need permits for our large snakes? We Dont! FLORIDA might need to consider adopting a permit system but passing a Federal act making the snakes in essence pharaiahs is not warranted.

We don't need it on a federal level, just any state should make it so that permits are required to own an animal that is already invasive to that said state.

Its too easy to sell or just give one away. These snakes no matter how large are worth $$$. And the only way i could see someone dumping one is if it were seriously ill and the person didnt want to pay to get the animal treated. It such a case the animal would prob die a slowly of whatever it had.

If they are worth so much why are they always in shelters? Pythons and boas are one of the top animals that I find at these places. I find it hard to believe that its easier for someone to spend the time looking to give it away over letting it go. It is much easier to just let an animal go then find a home for it. That is why there are so many stray dogs and cats. In fact I found my cat on the side of the road along with 2 other kittens, all litter trained and dumped. Its the thinking that the animal will die because it has some sort of disease that probably got some more snakes in the wild population. It doesn't take a lot of snakes to make a breeding population.

I think that the idea of having permits in theory is good. Good for the ecosystem and most likely good to all the herps that would die due to incompetence and everything else. It is also bad in many ways as stated by you folk. It will deter many people, and would be a hassle. The whole point of having permits is to protect the people, and the US ecosystems. You never know without permits we might someday end up like aussie, and have a cane toad like invasion causing many many problems. We also may not. There are plenty of ways things can turn up, lets just hope for the best of everything as a whole, not as us individuals would like.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Ok, so u just reiiterated my point that we dont need the Lacy Act. If Florida truly wanted to rid itself of future threats of more invasive species it would allow the USFW service to move all the inspection stations to other parts of the US. That would eliminate the possiblity of dangerous invasive species from escaping and being able to survive.

The florida senator pushing this bill/act isnt going to suggest that. That would cost his state millions of dollars in jobs/state tax on these import businesses.

 

[fluxlizard]

I agree. There is however going to be a much harder time to get this to pass because dogs and cats have been pets for hundreds of years. For something new (compared to how long some animals have been kept) like reptiles it wont be so hard. The majority of the general population dont own reptiles unlike cats and dogs.

Exactly what many of those in support of these laws are thinking. Go for the easy targets first, then incrementally take little bites with the law until none are allowed. The Humane Society of the United States are one of the groups that is expressing support of this Bill. The reason why is because they have already made it very clear that they do not want *any* reptile pets. Not pythons, not chameleons, not bearded dragons, not anything. That is one of the reasons I take such a strong opposing stance. The name of the game in modern politics and law is persistant incrementalism. If you can't get what you want prohibited one year, just keep coming back year after year from different angles until you can take a little nibble out of that freedom from one angle, then come back until you get another little nibble out of the freedom to own herps from another angle, and keep coming back year after year, angle after angle, until you've nibbled the freedom to own reptiles completely away.

You are saying the most extreme possible circumstance just as they do.

Of course I am. I think that's only fair if they are going to use the most extreme possible circumstance to base law on and then force me to obey those laws in the name of those extreme possibilities (like pythons possibly establishing in 2/3 the US).

The social norm for a reptile is a small lizard or snake. The social norm is something that is generally accepted threw out society as the normal for the said society. Most people (the same 90%+ of the population who dont own reptiles) think that a 20 foot snake is not normal. A reptile is not a normal pet. It is becoming more common, but it is still a specialized pet. Large reptiles scare a lot of people. Large dogs scare people too, but dogs are more acceptable animals to have then a 20 foot snake. How many people get weird looks on here when they say they have chameleons? I bet no one ever gets a weird look for owning a dog.

What does that have to do with truth and law? Supposedly we live in a country where our bill of rights allows us to do things that other people think outside the social normal. When I was kid I was told over and over that's what made America special and that's what made america so creative and strong.

Also are we not nuts about our chams? Do we not screen our customers about their setup and everything before we sell our animals?

I don't screen my customers. I help them screen themselves which is what normal adults do with each other. The societal norm for adults to use your kind of term.

The way I handle it is to provide them with the information they need to make certain they understand what they are getting into and what the nature of the animal is so they can decide for themselves if it meets their expectations and if it is right for their situation. I don't push them to buy, and I honestly answer their questions so they can make an informed decision.

If it's something big like an iguana (and yes I have produced a few igs from time to time, as well as taken some in that I found homes for later) I've always added plenty of cautions, plenty of instructions, and made sure they knew what they were getting into and let them know that I didn't want them taking it unless they were taking it for life and that I never wanted one of mine to end up in a shelter. I let them know my wishes, and I think they respected those wishes.

I've had people change their minds after learning what was really involved, and I've had many people change their mind at first, think it through for a while, and then return prepared to do what was necessary after changing their expectations.

But that's just it- I trust adults to be adults and make adult decisions based on the information I've given them. And I think they do because I have done my part to educate them. I've gotten a lot of other people's unwanted lizards, but I've never had one of my own come back to me.

Educating an owner or potential owner is a lot different than screening/not trusting/not even giving ownership/demanding rights to invade their privacy/ demanding permits.

 

[Olimpia]

I have to admit that ignorant pet owners are one of the things that piss me off the most. With the internet and millions of book sources, how the hell do you not take the time to investigate what you're getting into? I really could hit half the people that get on gecko forums, or what have you, and say they just got a gecko (or worse! They want to breed) but don't know what lighting/heating/feeding/housing requirements they need! And I'm sitting there like, what? I researched for MONTHS before I got my first reptile, and this person didn't take 2 seconds to learn anything before actually getting their animals.

I completely agree that a large percent of herp owners are careless and ignorant, just as there are lots of dog/cat/horse owners that are also ignorant. And parents, for crying out loud. As a volunteer at a hospital we had a woman come in with a month old infant bloated and constipated because she was feeding him oatmeal! She had no idea he was supposed to drink her milk or formula. But it's horrible that the rest of us have to suffer the consequences of these people.

I'm sorry for the slightly off-topic rant! It's been an interesting day.

 

[AReptile]

Really? Then how do you explain the fact that they all came from the same genetic background and how do you explain the fact that they all came from the same geographic region of the world where they have not been imported from since the time of the hurricane? The ones imported all the years since are from a completely different geographic local than the ones found in Florida. How do you explain that if nobody can tell you different?

I think you need to reword part of your argument or something because I don't understand what you're saying at all or how it's relevant to my point. My original point was that the show puts blame on irresponsible owners for part of the problem for releasing their animal because they could not handle it as an adult or whatever reason. However hurricane Andrew and illegal importing plays a much bigger role. I still stand by the theory the owners releasing their pets are part of the problem.

Now my point is that some people here are saying that NONE of these pythons were ever in the possession of a person that set it free for whatever reason, and you bring up locations from where these animals were imported. I don't see how you counteract my argument with something that is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to convey. As for the genetics part of your argument, well ok I can acknowledge that if they are getting similar genetic background that may account for a large number of the pythons found. Yet, there are so many of them that the probability that NONE of them being a released pet as so astronomically small, that I can't see how you argue it like it's physically impossible. It's not. Hell someone could have released their python in the swamp right this moment as I type this for all I know. Any research done on the pythons in Florida are done on ones that have been found. There are plenty more.... and unless every single one of them comes from the same genetic pool then you can tell me that I'm 100% wrong and absolutely none of them were released by irresponsible people.

 

[fluxlizard]

illegal importing plays a much bigger role

Am I missing something? What evidence do you have that illegal importing plays any role at all? This is a new one on me...

some people here are saying that NONE of these pythons were ever in the possession of a person that set it free for whatever reason, and you bring up locations from where these animals were imported. I don't see how you counteract my argument with something that is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to convey.

OK, it's difficult to make it any more clear than the stuff I linked to, but I'll try.

The pythons in large numbers is relatively recent.

If many of these animals came from owners in recent years, they would have genetics and patterns from localities that were imported in the last 10 or 15 years or however long it's been since the hurricane. From young animals that are reaching sizes where they begin to be a problem and get dumped. Not many people are going to keep a burm around until it's 15' long and then decide it's too much bother after all, let's let it go. They will dump them when they are 6 or 8 long or so, when they begin to be a bother. That length is also a relatively young age. 15 year old burms imported from way back then are not getting dumped, almost certainly. You would also find man made morphs, as these are mostly what are bred and kept as pets. Things like albinos, greens, lined, etc etc etc- burms are one of the most widely bred snakes in captivity- there must be hundreds of thousands out there in peoples homes.

But these aren't the ones scientists are finding running wild in Florida. The genetics and pattern match the pythons imported at the time of the hurricane. Not animals from localities imported since. Not morphs bred in captivity. Not from animals that would be younger from localities imported since that time. And yes, the paper is saying all the ones they've found down there are from the same locality and genetic background.

So, if they aren't finding the ones commonly kept and bred- how is it possible that pet owners are releasing them into the wild?

The paper further provided evidence that large pythons would not be likely to adapt to the environment- they would have too much difficulty learning to locate a constant food source. These are the sorts of pythons that would be normally released by pet owners because they had become too much bother.

But imported babies released could more easily find food sources and adapt and grow.

I'm not saying that none have ever been released. But not many, and think about it- how many burm python owners are likely to be in the area in the first place, then what percentage of those are likely to release one into the wild when it grows large enough to be a bother to them, and then what percentage of those are going to survive, and then what percentage of those are going to survive having been released close enough to another unlikely survivor to find a mate (keep in mind what the worlds expert says on their habits- they find a food source and stay put- only the babies roam) and then what percentage of those are likely to be a "normal" morph from a locality that was imported at the precise time of hurricane andrew. I think the odds are incredibly small...

Or lets say some released pets survived and bred to the ones released by the hurricane. Why are the genetics not showing up in any of the offspring that have been captured? Why are the patterns of the offpsring not different from the pattern of the locality of the hurricane snakes?

On the other hand- we know a hurricane hit some importers (legal, not illegal) and we know that it set babies loose of the particular morph and locality that are found now established in south florida.

So which do you think is more likely to be responsible for these pythons- the pet owners or the hurricane and importers? I think it's obvious...

Any research done on the pythons in Florida are done on ones that have been found. There are plenty more

Yes, and you can't prove there isn't a Santa because we've never found him. He's out there. Somewhere... we just haven't looked everywhere yet. (joking to illustrate my point)

Seriously- examine the real evidence that has been collected if you want to draw conclusions, not imaginary evidence that hasn't been collected until every last one of them are captured...