Any benefit to expensive breeders?

[broderp]

I'm interested in a new Cham and I'm sizing up my options. I know there are a few well known sponsors on the forum that sell awesome specimens. I'm heading to a reptile show this weekend in Ohio and I'm sure I will get the urge to buy. I've read the care sheets on the breeds I'm interested in, know what to look for and what to avoid.

Im concerned about price. I see chams going for 250-350 from the known breeders here. Since I'm not going to breed a single Cham, should I be concerned with lineage over price?

Assuming the health is good, is a Cham bought at a reptile show for a cheaper price than a site Sponcer any worse?

If I can pick up a healthy panther for $150-200, what's the issue? Sounds like a stupid question, even to me, but I don't want to make a mistake

 

[Redlegtu]

Regardless of bloodline/breeder, the set up and upkeep (bulb replacement/food/vet bills) is what will add up to more then the cost of your chameleon.

Price is subjective, you might say $150 is a lot to spend on a reptile, I say anything above $300 is expensive!

What it comes down to is.....do you trust the seller/breeder with what they are telling/selling you....that this baby chameleon will look like this when grown up. Chameleons can look very different from 2 months to 18 months! If you get it from reputable breeder/bloodline, you are assured with great degree of confidence that your chameleon will be what you want.

 

[animjason]

We just got one from Kammerflage and are very pleased. We have a great idea what he'll look like due to experience and knowing the parents. And at only three months, the colors and amount of "outfits" are AMAZING. Can't wait for the 18 month mark photos. I have an album if you care to see.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Source is more important than price. If the seller doesn't have photos and information about the lineage, I wouldn't buy the animal. It's not about "pedigree", it's the increasing of the odds that a chameleon bred by someone with experience, that has given good care to the parents and the offspring, is going to translate you you have a long lived, trouble free, chameleon. It's always better to support the good guys, rather than pay the chameleon mills that supply the chain stores and retailers, that buy whole clutches to resell at a profit. Someone I would buy a CB animal from would have concern for where their babies were going to and not be willing to sell to someone that wasn't well prepared for the care it takes to keep a chameleon.

 

[Mtnlaurel]

It's a no brainer. For ANY animal, a reputable breeder is the way to go. you will never regret it.

Not only that, but you can call them for advice later, which is damn near invaluable. It's soooooo much better.

 

[Crashbandit05]

It's a no brainer. For ANY animal, a reputable breeder is the way to go. you will never regret it.

Not only that, but you can call them for advice later, which is damn near invaluable. It's soooooo much better.

I have to disagree with this; only when it comes to dogs. There are many rescues and shelters that specialize in a specific breed or working class. There's no point to buying a dog from a breeder when millions are in shelters waiting for a home.

 

[Mtnlaurel]

^^excellent point.

 

[jajeanpierre]

@broderp Is that your chameleon in your profile picture?

Reptile shows are a mixed bag. My biggest concern would be that by the time you buy the animal, it is in a real mess. It might have gone to the show in wonderful condition but end up extremely stressed and exposed to a lot of disease such as Yellow fungus or other contagious virual diseases that it got because it was handled by a lot of people.

Or, the animal you get was produced by a breeder who has disease in their facility (notice all papillomavirus posts on this forum) or was produced from animals that were in poor condition. Yes, they can hatch out of the egg already with MBD. Or the breeder doesn't have the knowledge to raise babies and you end up with a baby that while alive and looking okay was chronically dehydrated throughout their life so will develop kidney disease years later.

Not all breeders with big names are good, but I would rather take a chance with them than a miscellaneous animal from a show. Plus at least with a breeder who has a reputation they are likely to be selling you what they claim they are selling. If you buy a Nosy Faly, you want a Nosy Faly, not an animal that is a mix of locales.

 

[Nursemaia]

I have to disagree with this; only when it comes to dogs. There are many rescues and shelters that specialize in a specific breed or working class. There's no point to buying a dog from a breeder when millions are in shelters waiting for a home.

I'd never buy a dog. All mine are mixed breed rescues. I do want an Irish Wolf hound and when that time comes I've found a rescue I can get one from. Even some of my chams are rescues but others I've bought from breeders. When it comes to buying from a breeder I think reputation is more important than cost

 

[broderp]

@broderp Is that your chameleon in your profile picture?

Reptile shows are a mixed bag. My biggest concern would be that by the time you buy the animal, it is in a real mess. It might have gone to the show in wonderful condition but end up extremely stressed and exposed to a lot of disease such as Yellow fungus or other contagious virual diseases that it got because it was handled by a lot of people.

Or, the animal you get was produced by a breeder who has disease in their facility (notice all papillomavirus posts on this forum) or was produced from animals that were in poor condition. Yes, they can hatch out of the egg already with MBD. Or the breeder doesn't have the knowledge to raise babies and you end up with a baby that while alive and looking okay was chronically dehydrated throughout their life so will develop kidney disease years later.

Not all breeders with big names are good, but I would rather take a chance with them than a miscellaneous animal from a show. Plus at least with a breeder who has a reputation they are likely to be selling you what they claim they are selling. If you buy a Nosy Faly, you want a Nosy Faly, not an animal that is a mix of locales.

Mixed bag... I see your point. I guess it's hard to determine what the animal will be exposed to in such environments or do background checks on all the breeders. This is great food for thought and something I can definitely ask about when I go. Is there a checklist or thread that goes over the basics of a good breeder vs. a bad or what questions and answers to ask?

I'm not 100% sure if I will buy, my rant in my original post was done late at night and I was very tired, but couldn't get to sleep. lol. I'm working towards having a completely new (refurnished) terrarium but it doesn't look like I will have it competed due to my work schedule. I can't find any branches worth using due to the wet weather outside. They would have ot be gathered, cleaned, sanitized and baked as well as dried before Saturday. The Show I will be attending is only once a month, so if I don't get one from a breeder this weekend I will need to wait until next month.

If anyone is familiar with any of the Ohio Reptile shows, her is a link to the generic website. There is a video as well.
http://allohioreptileshows.webs.com/

And yes, that's my Jackson in my signature. He recently passed away after being with me for many years. I believe he was about 5 years old. He was always a very skinny little boy with a hearty appetite and drank water regularly. He would eat between 7-10 large crickets daily, and was very active until he got sick one day. It took only a few days for what ever he got to take him from me.

 

[broderp]

Source is more important than price. If the seller doesn't have photos and information about the lineage, I wouldn't buy the animal. It's not about "pedigree", it's the increasing of the odds that a chameleon bred by someone with experience, that has given good care to the parents and the offspring, is going to translate you you have a long lived, trouble free, chameleon. It's always better to support the good guys, rather than pay the chameleon mills that supply the chain stores and retailers, that buy whole clutches to resell at a profit. Someone I would buy a CB animal from would have concern for where their babies were going to and not be willing to sell to someone that wasn't well prepared for the care it takes to keep a chameleon.

I'm a bit confused at this comment. I agree with your opening comment. A good breeder will take proper care of the parents and the offspring until sold.

However, aside from the "middle man" breeders sell off animals for profit as well. Do the breeders such as the ones on this forum not sell for a profit? Does it cost them $300 to raise and feed a baby Cham until the day it is sold? I somehow doubt it. You pay them (aka profit) for their selectiveness in breeding to produce a healthy animal. I could also be wrong, but to these same breeders require all purchasers to fill out a questionnaire before accepting payment over the web prior to carefully packaging up a new Cham for overnight delivery? That would be great, but I doubt it. So in a few ways, the 'better' breeders are not any different than the whole sellers. It sounds awful to say but they are running a business.

I'm not trying to provoke an argument, nor will I ever manage to change any long standing policy in the Cham business. I'm fishing for information. Hell, I could find that all the Chams worth purchasing at the Reptile show cost $300-$500, the same as from a vendor here. In that case I will simply enjoy the show and purchase thru a forum vendor later.

Thanks to all for the interesting points.

 

[JacksJill]

I agree that buying from a breeder with a good reputation is a good way to go. The only substitute would be to buy from some one you investigate and review their practices. If their husbandry and care is sound then you can buy with confidence. I would not count out backyard breeders from the forum or elsewhere if properly vetted. Sadly, I don't see how you could do that at an expo.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

The issue isn't about making a profit. I would argue that breeders probably come pretty close to even on the sale of their babies, when you consider the investment in food, food for the feeders, lighting, caging, incubation equipment, vet care, and so on.
The issue isn't making a profit. What I'm saying is that a breeder that puts the care into raising their babies and selling them earns your money, versus the bigger wheeler and dealers that invest very little in the well being of the animals, but simply buy them, cage them, toss in some crickets, and keep them alive until they sell.
There are chameleons that originate in conditions similar to a puppy mill. I view your petsmart and petco veilds this way. A good breeder would not want there beloved chameleons housed improperly, until the first person with the money could take it home to provide further inadequate care.

 

[animjason]

I could also be wrong, but to these same breeders require all purchasers to fill out a questionnaire before accepting payment over the web prior to carefully packaging up a new Cham for overnight delivery? That would be great, but I doubt it. So in a few ways, the 'better' breeders are not any different than the whole sellers. It sounds awful to say but they are running a business.

That brings up almost my exact experience. Now, I acquired my Kammerflage Chameleon a little different than most. I won it in a food drive for The Denver Rescue Mission, put on by local pet store Nature Box. Ed Kammer was awesome enough to supply two Panther Chameleons as prizes. Winner's choice on specific Panther heritage. That said, Kammer made sure I knew what I was getting into, had the proper set up, lighting, humidity, plants, hiding spots, anything you can think of, we talked about it. Does this happen on all transactions, I don't know? But what I do know is that he wouldn't have sent me a Chameleon until I was ready and he was confident it was going to a good home. I respect that and will always do business with him. I'm curious if others have this kind of relationship with thier purchases and breeders?

 

[jajeanpierre]

Mixed bag... I see your point. I guess it's hard to determine what the animal will be exposed to in such environments or do background checks on all the breeders. This is great food for thought and something I can definitely ask about when I go. Is there a checklist or thread that goes over the basics of a good breeder vs. a bad or what questions and answers to ask?

I'm not 100% sure if I will buy, my rant in my original post was done late at night and I was very tired, but couldn't get to sleep. lol. I'm working towards having a completely new (refurnished) terrarium but it doesn't look like I will have it competed due to my work schedule. I can't find any branches worth using due to the wet weather outside. They would have ot be gathered, cleaned, sanitized and baked as well as dried before Saturday. The Show I will be attending is only once a month, so if I don't get one from a breeder this weekend I will need to wait until next month.

If anyone is familiar with any of the Ohio Reptile shows, her is a link to the generic website. There is a video as well.
http://allohioreptileshows.webs.com/

And yes, that's my Jackson in my signature. He recently passed away after being with me for many years. I believe he was about 5 years old. He was always a very skinny little boy with a hearty appetite and drank water regularly. He would eat between 7-10 large crickets daily, and was very active until he got sick one day. It took only a few days for what ever he got to take him from me.

My worry is that your Jackson had something like coccidia. He was so small and stunted.... I would be very careful to really clean that cage. Tear the whole thing apart and bleach it with straight bleach and rinse with hot water. Leave to dry for a long time. Don't use anything that the other chameleons used.

I don't sterilize my branches taken from trees. I don't use branches lying on the ground or anywhere birds roost. I know it sounds like a contradiction to my first paragraph, but there is a high concentration of feces in your cage which isn't in the wild.

Be very careful about that cage. Give it time to be dry after you've really cleaned it well.

 

[broderp]

My worry is that your Jackson had something like coccidia. He was so small and stunted.... I would be very careful to really clean that cage. Tear the whole thing apart and bleach it with straight bleach and rinse with hot water. Leave to dry for a long time. Don't use anything that the other chameleons used.

I don't sterilize my branches taken from trees. I don't use branches lying on the ground or anywhere birds roost. I know it sounds like a contradiction to my first paragraph, but there is a high concentration of feces in your cage which isn't in the wild.

Be very careful about that cage. Give it time to be dry after you've really cleaned it well.

Thank you for your concern and insight. I've been looking for answers as to why he died myself. I had him for about 4+ years. He was always active, but never grew very big. I loved him as he was. He never had large fat deposits like normal but he ate and drank normally.

I've cleaned the terrarium with Windex, followed by a bleach solution, followed by more Windex and Some Natures Mirage cleaner. I then cleaned the glass one more time with Windex. I just took delivery of some F10SC veterinary disinfectant (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ECJ5NIY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) that I will be spraying down yet again and allowing to completely dry before cleaning the glass again as needed. I spent about 90 minutes so far cleaning out the terrarium.

I will be cleaning the plastic stuff by soaking in bleach solution, followed by rinsing and maybe a second cleaning and then a spraying with the F10SC. I will either clean the cricket keeper the same way or get a new one as I'm not sure it wasn't food related. I threw out all cricket food I had made so I will need to remake that from scratch as well. I hope I am doing enough to prevent any issues if I get a new Cham.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thank you for your concern and insight. I've been looking for answers as to why he died myself. I had him for about 4+ years. He was always active, but never grew very big. I loved him as he was. He never had large fat deposits like normal but he ate and drank normally.

I've cleaned the terrarium with Windex, followed by a bleach solution, followed by more Windex and Some Natures Mirage cleaner. I then cleaned the glass one more time with Windex. I just took delivery of some F10SC veterinary disinfectant (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ECJ5NIY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) that I will be spraying down yet again and allowing to completely dry before cleaning the glass again as needed. I spent about 90 minutes so far cleaning out the terrarium.

I will be cleaning the plastic stuff by soaking in bleach solution, followed by rinsing and maybe a second cleaning and then a spraying with the F10SC. I will either clean the cricket keeper the same way or get a new one as I'm not sure it wasn't food related. I threw out all cricket food I had made so I will need to remake that from scratch as well. I hope I am doing enough to prevent any issues if I get a new Cham.

F10 is fantastic stuff.

His stunted growth might not have been anything you would have found. Or it might have been something like coccidia. Regardless, four years is a pretty long life.

Good luck with your new one. Again, sorry for your loss.

When you choose one, pick one of the bigger ones in the clutch.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

As for profit, I can guarantee that I am not a breeder because of the profit I am making. We homeschool our children and we are using our little buisiness for education! Our children are learning: respect for animals, love for animals, responsibility, biology, chemistry, nutrition, how to do research and apply what you learn etc! Every time we sell a chameleon we do reserve on the town/city and the state the chameleon is going too! We learn about the economy of the city and the state, it comerse, farming, climate, what is being farmed there etc! It is very educational! None if it is monetary gain! We live in a area where our chameleons need to be inside and heated most of the year! Our profit is minimal and both my wife and I have to keep our regular jobs or we would have to stop what we are doing with our chameleon project.

In short, we are chameleon breeders for the love of chameleons and for the sake of our children's education!

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Hi there @broderp . We are getting a baby boy panther from @Matt Vanilla Gorilla . Will be our sec chamealon we also have a little girl veiled . We got Frances from a pet store . We absolutely love her but she has had health issues . There's no one we can fall back on for blood line how she was kept , what she was fed , supplement and such . Thank god for this forum and an amazing vet !!.

Now with @Matt Vanilla Gorilla i know my baby's everything and I do mean everything !!. I have watch him grow . I talk to Matt just about daily . He's kept our baby well beyound what anyone else would have bc we needed him to . His not in this for money I can absolutely 100% guarantee that . He has answers every question sent care sheet and ok Septiceye enclosure. That's the difference . Plus I get to drive him crazy lol thank you @Matt Vanilla Gorilla for putting up with me . Hope this helps a bit .

 

[broderp]

As for profit, I can guarantee that I am not a breeder because of the profit I am making. We homeschool our children and we are using our little buisiness for education! Our children are learning: respect for animals, love for animals, responsibility, biology, chemistry, nutrition, how to do research and apply what you learn etc! Every time we sell a chameleon we do reserve on the town/city and the state the chameleon is going too! We learn about the economy of the city and the state, it comerse, farming, climate, what is being farmed there etc! It is very educational! None if it is monetary gain! We live in a area where our chameleons need to be inside and heated most of the year! Our profit is minimal and both my wife and I have to keep our regular jobs or we would have to stop what we are doing with our chameleon project.

In short, we are chameleon breeders for the love of chameleons and for the sake of our children's education!

Respectfully disagree. If you purposely mate two animals for the purpose of procreation, whether for profit or not, this is the definition of a breeder.

A definition I quickly found stated:
"A breeder is a person who selectively breeds carefully selected mates, normally of the same breed to sexually reproduce offspring with specific, consistently replicable qualities and characteristics. This might be as a farmer, agriculturalist, or hobbyist, and can be practiced on a large or small scale, for food, fun, or profit."

Do you have a website or listing of the animals you have for sale? I'm in the market and seriously considering getting a new member to my family, the smaller 4 legged, cold blooded type..

I very highly commend you on all you do to make the experience educational and on the fact you do it while still working normal jobs. I have nothing against profiting from what you do. Cheers.