Any1 ever feel guilty about having chameleons in captivity?

[dreamforthedead]

Just a thought, i often sit and watch Mia and wonder what she would be like in the wild. No matter how much you give them nothing compares to being free out in the wild. Does nobody else feel guilty sometimes? Also the wild caught chameleons, im not sure how people can take them from being free to sticking them in a cage. I'm not having ago, i just don't really understand it. Peoples thoughts would be great.

 

[Olimpia]

I was actually thinking about this as well the other day. My poor Othello is probably wild caught, although no one can tell me for sure. He is such a dear, and although I've given him the biggest cage I can and as much outside time as I can, I still feel bad that he's probably had to go from the great Hawaiian outdoors to a 2x4 in someone's bedroom. That's why when I went out looking for a new apartment, I had him and my other guys in mind. I was lucky enough to find an apartment with two screened in balconies, so I'm turning one into a huge outdoor "cage" for them to take turns free ranging on.

If I could though, I would definately have them in much bigger cages. When I finally move into a house I own I will be building them much larger cages, so they really have room to stretch their legs in.

On the flip side of the coin, I also think that Othello might appreciate having a warm place to bask, constant fresh water, and regular meal times. And you can't put a price on feeling safe, I bet. I'd like to think that this is what he thinks, and that he enjoys being safe and comfortable.

 

[jpm995]

In a big cage or free range their probably much better off than in the wild. Especially with the keepers on this forum!

 

[pantherlover]

yes & no. i know they wanna be free but they live longer in the care of a good keeper with less stress.

 

[jodischams]

I also think about this from time to time. Especially lately where my little Jackson has had some medical issues...I give him tlc every single day, give him as much real sunshine as possible and then I realy wonder if he would survive not given the extras that I give him and then I think of predetors out there in the wild so its a 50/50 with me...He is also a bred in captivity cham so he doesn't know anymore than what he has..Its kinda sad though!

 

[draetish]

Since we cannot stop the exportation of these animals by their countries, I for one, feel that at least the ones that go to caring, experienced keepers are the lucky ones. I've heard that for every 60 chams that make it to their importer only 10 survive and then who knows how many perish after being acquired by a pet store or inexperienced, uncaring person.

 

[FFSTRescue]

I look at it like a prisoner in a white-collar prison, they get 3 meals a day or even more, comfortable bed, entertainment, etc, but they are still in prison and they want their freedom. How many chameleons cling to the side of their cage, or pace their entire cage searching for an escape? Or how many chameleons who are in their large outdoor cages look up at the top of the trees wishing they could climb up there? I know we provide them the best care we can, but they are still wild animals who feel the constraints of captivity. Same for birds, I adopted a 50 year old Blue and Gold macaw that was taken from the wild and when we go outside for a walk, he closes his eyes and flaps his wings and I know for a fact he is pretending he is flying in the wild like he used to do. He can't fly anymore because of a horrible past and he is arthritic and therefore deformed, but he hasn't forgotten. So, no matter what the animal is, we can never underestimate their intelligence and memory, and nothing compares to being in an open-air, free environment, even at the risk of being eaten by a predator... that is nature... to bask in the open air without a screen barrier, to not have to see a human predator on a daily basis with most feeling like that is the end every time they see us, and to choose from a variety of insects that come their way, not the same 5 or 6 items every day that are given to them. No matter how wonderful of an environment we think we provide for them (which I try my best), we can never simulate the same exact temperature, sun intensity, humidity, altitude, rain times, barometric pressure, and other variables from their natural environment in which they have spent millions of years adapting to. So even though they are in a comfortable and loving home, it is still a captive home in which they are not allowed to escape and be free in the wild, hence a prison, so yes, I feel guilty on a daily basis for having wc reptiles, but I hope to get to the point where I will sell CB and encourage people to buy CB animals, because people are always going to have exotic animals as pets, and I would rather the animal be one that is bred and born in captivity so it doesn't go through that traumatic change, and yes, the transportation is very traumatic, hence the high death rate. Opinions will vary, but fact is fact, and that fact is that our environment (in most countries where these animals are kept) does not match their native environment, and though animals may last occasionally last longer in captivity because their life does not end at the hands of a predator, I think it is pretty safe to assume that they do not suffer from the same ailments that they do in captivity. They are exposed to pathogens that their bodies didn't adapt to, and look at how many people come on here looking for help for their ill chameleons. Not everyone cares for their chameleons and other reptiles like we do, many of us are extreme as far as simulating their natural environment, but the average person is not, and many times, I think the chameleon would rather have suffered a quick death from a predator in the wild than be subject to the conditions that many people put them through from the second they are taken from their home.

 

[jannb]

In a big cage or free range their probably much better off than in the wild. Especially with the keepers on this forum!

I agree. I try to give my guys as much freedom as possible and allow them to free range my house. In the wild they'd have no vet care and probably live a very short life.

 

[lisagr07]

i understand what you are saying/asking.....

my husband manages an aquarium store and we have 4 saltwater reef tank at home.. most of the inhabitants come from the wild and if i let it get to me, it bothers me that "we" took them from their natural/happy home to live in a "glass box".... then again they have an assured meal once to twice a day, no predators and treatment if they get ill....

yet, if i let my mind wonder, it bothers me as to is this the "right thing" to do?????????

if these fish and reptiles, etc. , are captive bred / tank raise i believe it is "easier" for them for them, there are few adjustments for them to make .... but i know, they still have the inbred desires of their forbearer's, "to be free"... "carefree" in the wild..

i know we are to be " the ruler/dictator" over the animals.... but i love them sooo much,, it's sometimes hard for me to dominate them...

but it still happens.....

lisa

 

[jpm995]

FFSTrescue, I understand what your saying but i think your giving them credit for more brainpower than they really have. Freedom is not really important as food and shelter. I think they live for the moment and don't think about things like we do. Even humans from poor countries are conserned with eating and shelter, not freedom. Most animals have had to adapt to severe enviornments to survive, it doesn't mean they don't like it better at 72 degrees inside our house. We often times struggle to recreate an enviornment that might not even be the best for them. Look how Jacksons have thrived in Hawaii. Is it the same as some of the harsh enviornments they come from? No, it's better. If you were born in Alaska and moved to a tropical island could you survive? Every species is different but Chams seemed geared to thrive in a single tree/large bush enviornment.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

My occasional bouts of guilt over the caging and captive issues fuels my desire to make my chams the best possible enviroment i can provide.

 

[Carlton]

My occasional bouts of guilt over the caging and captive issues fuels my desire to make my chams the best possible enviroment i can provide.

Guilt has a positive side...

It means you care in the first place.
It also means you go to a lot of effort to give your cham a decent life. You probably read everything you can about their life in the wild, their habitats and how you can re-create it.
You probably observe your cham's behavior just in case you discover something it needs to make it's life better. The more carefully observant we are the more likely we are to improve their condition in captivity...either by learning how best to house, feed, medicate, and interact with them.
You understand and accept their personalities and don't demand that they change to suit your expectations.

If you simply sit and feel bad but take no action, that's when guilt isn't productive.

I've had quite a few exotic birds over the years. Now I have a pair of blue crowned motmots (relatives of kingfishers and the kookaburra) in an large indoor aviary that takes up about 1/3 of my living space. Yes, they are birds and often people feel birds suffer more than anything else in captivity because they are built for the ultimate freedom...flight.

Do I feel guilty about having them in captivity for my enjoyment? Yes and no. One was wildcaught and one was hand raised and the way they interact with me and behave is pretty much the same. They free fly in my house whenever I am home and they often sit in their aviary even if they have a choice not to. It is their home territory after all. I understand their behavior and provide cover, proper climate, lighting, bathing, diet, and live food they have to pursue and capture. I know what interests them. I know signs of illness. I give them things to investigate and learn about. They are healthy, active, alert, interact with me, and neither show the dreaded repetitive circling frustration behavior we associate with confinement.

When deciding on any species to keep captive, considering their wild habits is key. Motmots are pretty sedentary, sit and wait predators. They are not strong distance fliers, migratory nor do they move through very large territories in the wild. Most of the time they sit and watch for food. They tend to be nervous so they appreciate a peaceful predictable place without alarms or threats. They pair up for life and don't need to be separated at any season.

Would I choose to keep a gull, hawk, or other distance flying bird in an aviary? No. There's no way to provide them with seasonal changes in space. What about really cognitive birds like corvids or parrots? I choose not to keep them because I worry that captive life just can't be very satisfying or interesting enough for them.

The bottom line to me is to be very careful in selecting what kind of animal to bring into your home life. Some are much better suited than others and it is your responsibility to educate yourself before taking the plunge. If you are constantly doubting your choice and guilt is overwhelming its a sign you made a mistake.

 

[Ocelot357]

you can say what you want, brag about how much care you give your cham....in the end, WHAT WE ARE DOING IS WRONG.

Its like having a bird caged....its horrible.Birds are meant to fly, not to be caged.

we pay people to kidnap them from there natural habitat.

i feel guilty cause it is wrong....but oh well, i guess its just the american in me.

 

[Carlton]

you can say what you want, brag about how much care you give your cham....in the end, WHAT WE ARE DOING IS WRONG.

Its like having a bird caged....its horrible.Birds are meant to fly, not to be caged.

we pay people to kidnap them from there natural habitat.

i feel guilty cause it is wrong....but oh well, i guess its just the american in me.

So this begs the question...do you have any chams, and if so, why?

 

[Warrix642]

There is good and bad as always. I think a clutch born in captivity have a WAYYYY higher chance of surviving than in the wild.

Dustin

 

[Ocelot357]

So this begs the question...do you have any chams, and if so, why?

read my post.......


"i feel guilty cause it is wrong....but oh well"

 

[FFSTRescue]

Why do any of us have chams? To entertain us, that is what it all boils down to. We find them fascinating, we love them, we want to provide the best care for them so they fare well in our care, because they entertain us and make us happy, and we love watching them. Personally, I am against having WC chameleons for any other purpose than to breed to promote captive breeding to lessen the amount of chameleons that have to go through the horrendous nightmare exportation/importation process, and the horrendous conditions many people put them through in captivity such as those who make impulse purchases at pet stores. Some people who have chameleons or any wild animal for entertainment should stick with a tv or a picture.

In response to a previous comment, wanting "freedom" has nothing to do with intelligence level, it is a basic animal instinct, not an exclusively anthropomorphic behavior. Insects even try to escape from their enclosures. Uncomfortability is apparent when they are searching for something different, something they are used to and have adapted to over millions of years.

On side note, someone mentioned about humans being a "ruler/dictator" over animals, but if you are biblically speaking, we are to have dominion over animals, but the actual translation in biblical times, dominion meant to be a "care-taker".

There are many of you who take such amazing care of your chameleons, that I want to be your chameleon in my next life! Unfortunately, we are not the majority

 

[Clarke221]

This post wells up quite a few emotions for me.

I kept and bred crested geckos for years successfully and took a guilt trip here and there about them being trapped in cages and forced to live the way I wanted them to.

Now, not only do I have a chameleon, my other love is Great Danes. We have a relatively small house in a regular community. We don't have land, or a huge amount of space for these 150lb dogs to roam. But, they are our babies, and the cham is my baby as well. Our animals receive the best care possible. The dogs are allowed on the furniture, are of healthy weight, get to be with other dogs, sleep in the bedroom with us, get exercise, eat and drink regularly, etc. And to top it off, they're show dogs, so they're pampered and loved and babied just like all show dogs...and they're our pets, part of our family. The cham is in a nice cage with plants and is about to get a misting system, and is fed regularly as well. Although this is my first experience with chameleons, I think I'm doing well. I guess I've always thought that if I don't have these animals, someone else would. And who says they will provide better care? Maybe they will, or maybe the dogs would end up with an abusive owner, and the cham with someone who neglects him. I can't imagine my dogs being more happy, and although I'm learning with my cham, he is pretty spoiled, and I'm always working to learn more and make him more comfortable.

So, do I think they may want more room and want to be in the wild, probably. But, if you compare me to so many owners out there, I think I'm doing much better than most. I guess that's my excuse for having my zoo, I'm good to my animals, and I love them.

 

[Olimpia]

Clarke, you make a good point. Better us than all the people who cause all the chameleon horror stories we're used to reading about on here.

Knowing the statistics now about how many WC chameleons actually survive the trip and then go on to live long lives, I'm so happy that Othello found his way to me. It makes me sick thinking that he, being the beautiful, bright, docile Jackson's he is, could have ended up with some idiot that would have neglected him and lead to his death. I know that with me he'll live the longest life possible. And I'm happy to have gained his trust in the process.

 

[TonyRockyHorror]

I for one, actually don't feel guilty. I give my animals a good home and take care of them very well. And they live stress free lives.

Reading all this nonsense about "what the animal thinks" and "They think differently then we do" and "how they feel" and "[how many] look up at the top of the trees wishing they could climb up there?" is completely hilarious. Like some where out there is a cham gazing longingly at the tree tops with a single tear wishing upon a star that he, too, was FREE! One day, little cham, one day you will see your family again!

It's ridiculous. As if these animals form concrete thoughts in their little brains. I love these animals to death, but c'mon, it's a living animal that can't even acknowledge it's own existence that can't stop and 'think' "Hey, I'm a living thing." it doesn't even know its alive! Everything it does it likely driven on instinct. And not to be completely rude, but you have to admit that sort of thinking is more than a little silly.

If a chameleon is stressed it will show stressed coloration or behavior. If it is calm and at ease, it will show that. My chams are stress free and "happy," so to speak. And that makes me happy and that's all I need. If anything, being under my care has more or less guaranteed them something they could never get in the wild: plenty of food and a long, perfectly healthy, parasite-free existence.