Any1 ever feel guilty about having chameleons in captivity?

[jpm995]

Carlton, i would love to see your house. It sounds great. Can the Chams see the birds? That would make them nervous. I've always felt that the size and quality of their captive enviornment was the key. People laugh at me because i keep a school of cardnials in my 150gal freshwater tank and tropicals in my 130gal indoor pond. I find their schooling behavour interesting. I hate watching a big fish in a tank he can barely turn around in. I've felt guilt at times but only when animals have died because of my ignorance or neglect. I'd have more regret if i ran a pet store where i knew 90% of the animals i sold would be dead in a month. I had an upside down catfish that lived for 14 years and had cataracts for the last year. No way he lived that long in the wild.

 

[FFSTRescue]

I for one, actually don't feel guilty. I give my animals a good home and take care of them very well. And they live stress free lives.

Reading all this nonsense about "what the animal thinks" and "They think differently then we do" and "how they feel" and "[how many] look up at the top of the trees wishing they could climb up there?" is completely hilarious. Like some where out there is a cham gazing longingly at the tree tops with a single tear wishing upon a star that he, too, was FREE! One day, little cham, one day you will see your family again!

It's ridiculous. As if these animals form concrete thoughts in their little brains. I love these animals to death, but c'mon, it's a living animal that can't even acknowledge it's own existence that can't stop and 'think' "Hey, I'm a living thing." it doesn't even know its alive! Everything it does it likely driven on instinct. And not to be completely rude, but you have to admit that sort of thinking is more than a little silly.

If a chameleon is stressed it will show stressed coloration or behavior. If it is calm and at ease, it will show that. My chams are stress free and "happy," so to speak. And that makes me happy and that's all I need. If anything, being under my care has more or less guaranteed them something they could never get in the wild: plenty of food and a long, perfectly healthy, parasite-free existence.

Thinking that animals are capable of thought is silly? Lol, are you of the old school of thought that reptiles don't feel pain as well? Though it is true that we don't know what they are thinking, and we can't say if they are "happy" or not (first you say they don't have thought yet are happy in your care), I try not to anthropomorphize and say what emotions they ARE actually capable of feeling, if any at all, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if there is a barrier between where the animal is and where the animal wants to be, it stresses them out because they want to get past that barrier. Common sense prevails here, or should anyway.

 

[Carlton]

Carlton, i would love to see your house. It sounds great. Can the Chams see the birds?

Well, once someone gets over the surprise at the big mesh aviary looming in the livingroom the rest of the house seems pretty ordinary except for the nightcrawler tub in the bathtub with a LED light hanging over it. What is supposed to be a dining room is now lined with terrarium racks. Oh well, I never eat there anyway.

No, the birds and my herps (8 frogs, 1 cham, 1 python) don't mix. Like their relatives the kooks, kingfishers, and rollers, motmots are lizard predators and they actively hunt. They know where my insect colonies are kept and often hammer their beaks on the bins hoping one will appear. I have to keep doors closed or hide the bins because of this...but the motmots find them again pretty fast. If I haven't seen one fly by for a while chances are it is lurking on or near a bug bin.

I agree...so many problems with captive keeping can be solved just by doubling or tripling their living space. Even the simplest animal mind needs some sense of "choice" in where it wants or needs to spend time. By giving an animal more options you give it variety, micro climates, enrichment, and some sense that it can direct its own life. Its sort of like the idea of beneficial stress giving the brain something to do. No stress at all is as bad as too much.

Probably the main reason I haven't expanded the zoo to fish is worrying about just how totally dependent they are on electrical, mechanical, and expert care even to breathe! Also, it is so much harder to give them any kind of generous water space. Those larger fish just hanging in the water column of a minimal tank upset me.

When I hear behavioralists stating that animals are not "self-aware" it always surprises me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what they mean by self-awareness, but I can't see that any sentient being could survive if it wasn't self-aware. Maybe it doesn't brood over the future or the past like a human, but the past does affect its behavior (experience) and it is motivated by desire to survive. I don't think chams are simple thoughtless victims of events. They react to threats, make decisions and the ones who don't do this well don't pass on their genetic traits.

 

[OldSkoolxReasons]

I go back and forth on this debate from time to time but in the end the question I always ask myself is whether I would ever see *insert chameleon's name here* again if I left the cage door open and my answer is usually no because they would almost all rather be free than in cages. There are the select few that get really comfortable in captivity and probably wouldn't leave their cage even if it was open but I'd say most would be gone in a heart beat.



Justin

 

[benpaul]

wow

honestly i am certain a chameleon does not have the intelligence to ascertain the fact it is in captivity. i love mine dearly and he still thinks im gonna eat him every time my hand goes in the cage. don't feel bad as beautiful as the animal is, it is not intelligent enough or self aware enough to realize it is in captivity. feel good you are spending so much for your time caring for it and fulfilling its every need and don't worry bout what it thinks...its not human.

@carlton sorry i didn't read your post before i posted. self aware means literally that. They do not realize they are a being. They function on animal intelligence feed, sleep, shelter, reproduce. They do not think hey i'm a chameleon and i wanna be free. they think i want to survive and reproduce. they recognize facts like hey i get my food from this guy he is ok. and i get my water from this source and everything else is instinct. i dont mean to be cold as i have 2 cats a dog and my chameleon, all that i love more than almost anything. but animals are not people. Do not feel sorry for giving them a good life in my humble opinion.

 

[FFSTRescue]

Benpaul nailed it right on the head with the comment that they (most) think we are going to eat them every time we go to feed them... that is fact, and that is "captivity", that is a form of "thought", whether primitive or advanced. They do not experience the presence of a constant predator in the wild that just isn't eating them for some reason, making the stress constant, which makes me feel "guilty".

On another note, why are people telling everyone what a chameleon is thinking, or not thinking? Who are these people that have all the answers and can get inside an animals head? Seriously, who knows what they are thinking... even us animal behaviorists don't know. My point is that they "may" be thinking a certain way, and the fact that a massive percentage of them die after capture to exportation/importation to captivity factually speaks volumes... need I say more? The more educated I become, the more I realize I don't know. The most ignorant comment that I heard was that "an animal doesn't even know its alive!", so then why does it fight death and evade predators? Every creature is conscious of life and the avoidance of death, which is why it mates as quickly as possible, to spread his genes, as death is imminent. Though that is an instinctive thought, it is still a "thought". Many people think human actions are exclusively human when in fact they are instinct, applicable to all living things. Who knows what they are thinking, but peoples OPINIONS are very interesting to hear and contemplate the possibility

 

[Olimpia]

I don't agree, I think they do have some form of though. And I do certainly think they can tell they are in captivity - they don't know the word, or perhaps the concept, but they know that suddenly they are conclosed and not free to go wherever they like. we found an injured corn snake on our doorstep once and kept it to heal it for a couple weeks. When he was first fed he was very content. But the next week he refused to eat, stood up striking at the glass walls over and over like some kind of enemy. Even in the dark - not because he could see his reflexion but because he did not understand or want to be in this glass tank. We eventually had to set him free again.

An animal like a chameleon may not be inteligent enough to understand everything and contemplate the meaning of life, but it doesn't take a genius to see that "oh hey, look I went from having miles of open forest to run and call my own territory, and now I'm in a 2x4 cage with a view to strange furniture and walls." Call it what you will, but as a WC, their experience has shown them one thing, and when we stick them in a cage in our livingroom, you bet they can tell the difference.

Also, animals make choices on a daily basis, and it's not all instinct driven. Like FFSTRescue said, a lot of what we do as humans is completely either instinctual or hormonal, and not rational. In fact, it's recommended that women wait 3-4 days before changing something drastically in their life, because hormonal changes from month to month may cause you to feel extremely passionate about a change, and then 4 days later you wonder why you even cared in the first place. Testosterone in men causes them to do waaaay more risky behaviour than would be rational because it hazes over your self preservation instincts. Or having babies - babies actually smell nice to women because it contains chemicals that trick your brain into creating a really strong urge to have babies of your own, even in women that have otherwise chosen they don't want children.

Ok, well I might have gotten a little carried away there towards the end with examples but you get my point lol. But don't get me started on dogs though, they absolutely do reason and have thoughts.

 

[laurie]

I look at it like a prisoner in a white-collar prison, they get 3 meals a day or even more, comfortable bed, entertainment, etc, but they are still in prison and they want their freedom. How many chameleons cling to the side of their cage, or pace their entire cage searching for an escape? Or how many chameleons who are in their large outdoor cages look up at the top of the trees wishing they could climb up there? I know we provide them the best care we can, but they are still wild animals who feel the constraints of captivity. Same for birds, I adopted a 50 year old Blue and Gold macaw that was taken from the wild and when we go outside for a walk, he closes his eyes and flaps his wings and I know for a fact he is pretending he is flying in the wild like he used to do. He can't fly anymore because of a horrible past and he is arthritic and therefore deformed, but he hasn't forgotten. So, no matter what the animal is, we can never underestimate their intelligence and memory, and nothing compares to being in an open-air, free environment, even at the risk of being eaten by a predator... that is nature... to bask in the open air without a screen barrier, to not have to see a human predator on a daily basis with most feeling like that is the end every time they see us, and to choose from a variety of insects that come their way, not the same 5 or 6 items every day that are given to them. No matter how wonderful of an environment we think we provide for them (which I try my best), we can never simulate the same exact temperature, sun intensity, humidity, altitude, rain times, barometric pressure, and other variables from their natural environment in which they have spent millions of years adapting to. So even though they are in a comfortable and loving home, it is still a captive home in which they are not allowed to escape and be free in the wild, hence a prison, so yes, I feel guilty on a daily basis for having wc reptiles, but I hope to get to the point where I will sell CB and encourage people to buy CB animals, because people are always going to have exotic animals as pets, and I would rather the animal be one that is bred and born in captivity so it doesn't go through that traumatic change, and yes, the transportation is very traumatic, hence the high death rate. Opinions will vary, but fact is fact, and that fact is that our environment (in most countries where these animals are kept) does not match their native environment, and though animals may last occasionally last longer in captivity because their life does not end at the hands of a predator, I think it is pretty safe to assume that they do not suffer from the same ailments that they do in captivity. They are exposed to pathogens that their bodies didn't adapt to, and look at how many people come on here looking for help for their ill chameleons. Not everyone cares for their chameleons and other reptiles like we do, many of us are extreme as far as simulating their natural environment, but the average person is not, and many times, I think the chameleon would rather have suffered a quick death from a predator in the wild than be subject to the conditions that many people put them through from the second they are taken from their home.

After reading all this thread, this response describes what I think/feel. Of all my chameleons I have 1 or maybe 2 w/c. Both came to me as rescues. That doesn't make it right but I look at the alternatives once they are in captivity/system and allow myself to keep them. I do try to reproduce their natural environment, and don't even come close as do few others. I am never sure my care and "loving them", all of them not just the w/c makes up for what they sacrifice. So maybe I should not have them as it is a daily battle for me, over my guilt of "keeping them". Maybe some day i will know the answer but I doubt it.

 

[Monkeykungphu]

Agree with everything Olimpia & FFSTRescue just said in the last few post 100%. Some good rationality.

 

[draetish]

After the day my chams had, I don't feel guilty at all. This was this afternoon after feeding, watering and some uvb. Rocko has to survey the situtation always. When I come home from work he is waiting. As you can see, he has a "choice" of being way up high away from me, or where you see him now. He is very curious and doesn't even flinch when approached. I think he has a pretty good life.

 

[FFSTRescue]

Donna, I want to come back as one of your chameleons in my next life

 

[krbshappy71]

I was outside with my chameleons for the first time yesterday and felt this guilt. Swyft was at the side of his cage and had spotted the chocolate mint. He had his back feet on the vine in his cage, and his front feet pawing at the chocolate mint waving in the wind. There was no way I was going to let him out (brand new owner, here) but my heart was sad that he wanted out like that.

Then I reminded myself of my dogs in the backyard. Would they like out? Absolutely! They'd love to run free around the neighborhood! But its not what's best for them in this situation/town. Sorry Swyft, but you get fed, talked to, misted, and fussed over just like the other pets. Its a hard-knock life.

 

[draetish]

Donna, I want to come back as one of your chameleons in my next life

LOL - way cool Kristen, thanks!

 

[primestick]

i do not feel guilty at all... free food, protection from preditors and the perfect weather conditions. life is good. As far as my dogs they wouldnt know what to do with out me... i can let them out the front door and if i dont go out they wine at the door. (sorry 4 spelling little medicated)

 

[Clifford]

Just a thought, i often sit and watch Mia and wonder what she would be like in the wild. No matter how much you give them nothing compares to being free out in the wild. Does nobody else feel guilty sometimes? Also the wild caught chameleons, im not sure how people can take them from being free to sticking them in a cage. I'm not having ago, i just don't really understand it. Peoples thoughts would be great.

I feel far more guilty about the pigs, cows and chickens I eat on a regular basis. Learn about how very cruelly humans treat food animals like they were factory "things" rather than living creatures, and you start to think vegetarians are right. Or at least those organic free-range oh-natural animal farmers.
Anyhow, My chameleon lives a decent life: he eats well, the temperature is moderated, he gets doctor check-ups, he breaths clean air, and nothing eats him. True, he has limited space and no mating opportunities, but it could be worse.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

When I first started the hobby I had some problems keeping chameleons.

However as I have become more experienced and have grown as a keeper I now understand how important it is to have chameleons available for keepers to work with in the hobby/captivity. First with adults and young keepers, chameleons are 1st hand experience to biology from the home. Second these animals alert keepers and others to issues of forestry and wildlife conservation that without any chameleons in captivity that would not have a clue about as well as become more passionate to other conservation issues world wide. Lastly it is a constructive hobby that keeps people away from more destructive aspects of society for an example is me away from gangs and drugs.

However, there still are some aspects that should be up graded and improved over all, such as lowering the numbers of wild caught species being imported for some species and that most of the animals available to the public I think should be captive bred.

Jeremy A. Rich
UC Davis Student

 

[chamyndst8]

I did before, so I got then the biggest cages I could get. So now I don't feel guilty.

 

[Eszzie]

If I see a wild caught specie of chameleons i'd rather see them falling into hands of an expert rather than just anyone where it probably die. Export of certain species you will never prevent but then I think it's better to try to breed with a specie and give them a good home since you can never stop exporting and in this way still be able to support a specie. I hate it when beginners buy WC animals and hard to keep species from some guy and don't know how to take care of it.

 

[jpm995]

This is a great post. Don't agree with everybody's opinoin, but most have made strong points and logical arguments to support their claims. I'm thinking now that if we can provide the a good portion of the space and enviornment the animal normally would make use of in the wild we can satify most of their needs. Also the more intelligence the animal has the more difficult it is to provide a stimulating enviornment. Birds seem to be a good bellweather for this. Parrots are noted for plucking out their own feathers and self destructive behivour when captive. Less intelligent animals [chams?....pssst, don't tell Yoshi I said this] may constantly roam the barrier of their cages trying to get free. Betta fish are often found in drainage ditches and other tiny pools of water, so would seem to be perfect pets to keep in a relatively small tank [not a fishbowl please]. Don't most chams live in a single bush most of their lives? Another good canidate for capivity. I'd love to free range a finch in the house but afraid of conflict with my cham.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I think working with these species and any other exotic species is a privilege of accomplished conservation goals. If certain species are well conserved and protected in the wild it is OK to give permits/quotas to export small number of animals for captive breeding for the chameleon keeping hobby. However if species are not being conserved in the wild then it is inappropriate to export these species until they are conserved and protected in the wild.

Jeremy A. Rich
UC Davis Student