Anyone gutload superworms with Reprashy Bug Burger?

[sandrachameleon]

...For those individuals who insist that preformed vitamin A is not necessary and should be avoided because their animals have always done well without it and because they have successfully produced and raised offspring from animals without the use of preformed vitamin A, I have a couple questions. How many generations of captive bred animals have you personally produced without the introduction of wild blood (and thus, nutrition)? Since you seem to know that that a lack preformed vitamin A does not play into the cause of the general failure of chameleon keepers and breeders to maintain chameleon bloodlines past a handful of generations without the introduction of wild blood, please be so kind as to inform everyone what exactly is the cause?
...

Though I dont insist that preformed vitamin A is unnecessary in all situations, I certainly have stated frequently the truth of how I went for over a decade without using it, and yet didnt run into any problems. Im now on the Fourth generation, using no new wild blood (that original male was captive hatched, having come in as an egg from a wild captured female), using no preformed vitamin A. However the most recent female mother of that fourth generation was a captive bred animal (bought quite young) from ChromaChameleons (who I believe does provide retinol). I know that lack of preformed vitamin A hasnt been a problem for me, but I cant answer your second question because I've never suggested it hasnt been a problem for others, and I cannot speak to the reasons that others may have problems.

There does appear to be more than one pathway to success.

People with limited experience or with heightened fear may do best, at least initially, to use something like the repashy product. It may also be a good choice for people who lack the time, energy or interest in making their own gutloads. A combination of something like the repashy burger along with good fresh vegetables, and some seeds and fruits, might be a good way to go for anyone.

It may be of interest to note that I am now going to give half my chameleons something that contains preformed vitamin A twice or even three times a year. Not because I believe they need it, but because I am curious and open minded. Likely the dose they are / will be getting (indirectly) will be insignificant compared to what some others think, nay insist, is necessary. But for me this is enough. In particular, I want to see if I can see any difference between two brothers from the same clutch, kept in the same room, side by side in same type of home-made cage, same lighting, same prey. Im not expecting to notice a difference, but Im curious and open minded about it. Im also well aware this is far from scientific

 

[Allen Repashy]

Hi Sandra,

I appreciate your enthusiasm and your open mindedness to the fact that there are more than one ways to skin a cat.

While I don't doubt your successes without Retinol supplementation, I am glad to see you open to the fact that a bit here and there won't do any harm. Your chameleons might be doing great, but we never really know if they are "all they can be" There is always room for improvement, and I think we should all be able to agree that some level of retinol is not going to cause problems, and has a good chance of improving things like immune system response for example.

You said that you don't think it is necessary, but I think we can agree that this doesn't mean that inclusion of it is going to cause problems either.... Only if we add too much will we have potential issues and it is really this margin of error that is the main point of argument. I think the safe levels are higher than most, and you think the toxic levels are lower than most

Chameleons are undoubtedly getting retinol in their natural diet as it some insects contain more levels than others, and field collected insects have shown to contain much higher levels than domestically raised ones on average diets. There is also a good chance that they are eating small vertebrates such as other lizards, which would provide good doses of retinol.

I go back to a previous statement and think that we all agree that some retinol is healthy and a normal part of chameleon diets. We just have different opinions as to what safe levels are and I think that eventually, we will meet in the middle and all be happy

 

[sandrachameleon]

You're so right, it's that definition of "a little" or "a lot" that no one yet agrees upon. Its good people are thinking about it though, trying to work it all out. The hobby has a great deal yet to learn.

While I don't doubt your successes without Retinol supplementation, ...

thank you.

You said that you don't think it is necessary, but I think we can agree that this doesn't mean that inclusion of it is going to cause problems either.... Only if we add too much will we have potential issues and it is really this margin of error that is the main point of argument.

Not necessary in my particular situation, but clearly shown to be necessary for others. I 100% whole heartedly agree and have no doubt whatsoever that a little is absolutely safe, and perfectly natural (agreeing also that in the wild they will eat the occassional lizard, carion eating beetle, even perhaps small birds, etc). It is clear that my particular success without it is not the norm, at least not on this forum.

I wish I knew why mine had/have no issues without it. I think that knowing this would be useful in the general understanding of their needs. I suspect, but cannot prove, it has something to do with the variety of feeders I use (including some wild caught ones, in summer).