Apparently D3 is dangerous?

[misshissingroaches]

https://www.facebook.com/notes/wich...ngers-of-using-d3-supplements/625383000866559

I only read the first few paragraphs, but apparently D3 supplements are dangerous now? Please, experts on D3, tell me if this is true?

 

[jamjam]

of course it is thats why we only offer it every 2 weeks. the article goes on and on about over dosing of owner error or giving reptiles d3 while living outdoors. thats where most of ts harm comes from. but author goes into more depth about how d3 supplement bottles usually have a min and max and not an exact amount, and that it can be risky to just guess how much you are giving. but for th most part good lighting and a light dusting every 2 weeks should do no harm at all

 

[Bush baby]

Good read. I don't use D3 supplementation either. I tend to just take my cham outside for a total of about 12-16 hours a week for natural sunlight, and he seems to be fine.

 

[jamjam]

ya supplements are suppose to be just that and not the only sole purpose to do so. hence the importance in good gutloading. or taking them outside for natural UV if thats possible

 

[misshissingroaches]

Heh Heh, little question about D3, Do iguanas need it? cause I'm getting a clubtail iguana soon.

 

[kinyonga]

Is it going to be outside?

 

[Pez]

Its all about the balance, D3 can be synthesized by the body from UV light so if the animal in question is getting enough UV light it is not necessary for dietary D3. However if the animal does not have asses to proper UV light it will need dietary D3. The danger is the overdose of the D3 it is hard to measure what is in supplements, Animals can usually regulate D3 from UV light so it is safer. Like I said all about the Balance if getting UV light from natural light usually don't need D3 if from artificial light you may need some dietary supplements. It is a fine balance straight dietary D3 normal is dangerous.

 

[Bush baby]

The whole purpose of the D3 supplement is to act as a safty net. I personally feel it is an unnecessary one myself.

If you change your bulbs every 6-8 months, as recommended, and/or take your cham outside for regular natural sunlight, your chams body will make all the D3 it needs, and as it needs it- with no fear of over dose. When you add supplementation to this, you're giving the cham more than it can handle; even if they're only getting D3 supplements once or twice a month. In my opinion, the only people that should be supplementing with D3, are the people that cannot keep up with their bulbs changing schedule and/or don't provide UV bulbs for their chams at all. Anyone else that is supplementing their chams diet with this regularly, is basically playing russian roulette with their chams health.

I posted this on another thread, but chams need D3 just like all reptiles do for calcium absorption. I have kept Turtles for longer than i have kept chams (20 years plus), and have never taken any of the numerous species of turtles i have kept outside for UV, nor do i have any UV bulbs in my aquariums. I don't, mainly because they are a pain in the ***, because they cause massive algae blooms to occur. Despite this, my turtles thrive; and you know why? Because every turtle pellet is fortified with D3. They don't need to get it from the light or the sun. Alas, because pellets are a commercial food, the correct doses of D3 has been calculated for them. It's a shame that their isn't a commercially fortified food for chams; but as we all know, that's due to the fact that they only eat live prey.

 

[kinyonga]

Originally when I started suggesting dusting twice a month lightly with D3 its because I had done it for years and my chameleons usually lived long healthy lives. I do use UVB lights and change them. I was trying to simplify the husbandry for beginners so they would have good luck with their chameleons. That's why I still do it as well as I don't change what works.

There is always more than one way to do things but for beginners its nice to make it as fool proof as possible IMHO.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

D3 is not necessarily dangerous but does have risks if used excessively. That article is a bit extreme and not very scientifically based. I'll post some articles in a bit that show both the benefits and the risks.

I also have stopped using D3 because my guys get outdoor time and always have fresh UVB when indoors and have not noticed a problem. But for newbies still trying to learn the ropes and chams that don't get outdoor exposure I do still recommend giving it twice a month, which is minimal dosing to reduce risk of problems.

 

[kinyonga]

Ferrit said..."D3 is not necessarily dangerous but does have risks if used excessively. That article is a bit extreme and not very scientifically based"...i agree.

Ferrit said..."for newbies still trying to learn the ropes and chams that don't get outdoor exposure I do still recommend giving it twice a month, which is minimal dosing to reduce risk of problems"... Totally!

 

[Bush baby]

Another thing with D3, is that unlike vitamin supplementation, which can also be used minimally by carefully gut loading with a wide array of foods, there are very few foods that contain D3 that we can feed to our feeders. Beef liver, egg yolks and fatty fish contain small amounts of D3. The only problem with feeding these types of foods to our feeders is that they contain a very high amount of animal protein.

 

[kinyonga]

Mushrooms have D3 in them and are low in protein.

 

[Mike Fisher]

The article basically concludes that since many supplements you can buy have too much D3, that all dietary D3 is bad.

That is a very poor conclusion to make.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Evidence of the Benefits of D3:
"Panther Chameleons, Furcifer pardalis, Behaviorally Regulate Optimal Exposure to UV Depending on Dietary Vitamin D3 Status"
Author(s): Kristopher B. Karsten, Gary W. Ferguson, Tai C. Chen, Michael F. Holick
Source: Physiological and Biochemical Zoology, Vol. 82, No. 3 (May/June 2009), pp. 218-225

"Effects of artificial ultraviolet light exposure on reproductive success of the female panther chameleon (Furcifer pardalis) in captivity"
Zoo biology [0733-3188] Ferguson yr: 2002 vol: 21 iss: 6 pg: 525 -537

"The Panther Chameleon: Color Variation, Natural History, Conservation, and Captive Management."
Ferguson G.W., J.B. Murphy, J.B. Ramanamanjato, and A.P. Raselimanana.
Krieger, Malabar, FL. 2004

Abstract from one: "Basking by ectothermic vertebrates is thought to have evolved for thermoregulation. However, another beneficial effect of sunlight exposure, specifically the ultraviolet B (UV-B) component, includes endogenous production of vitamin D(3). In the laboratory, panther chameleons exhibited a positive phototaxis to greater visible, ultraviolet A (UV-A) and UV-B light. However, with equivalent high irradiances of UV-A or UV-B, their response to UV-B was significantly greater than it was to UV-A. Exposure of in vitro skin patches of panther chameleons to high UV-B (90 microW/cm(2)) for 1 h significantly enhanced vitamin D(3) concentration. Voluntary exposure to higher UV-B irradiance (70 vs. 1 microW/cm(2)) resulted in greater circulating 25-hydroxyvitamin D(3) in female panther chameleons (604 vs. 92 ng/mL). Depending on dietary intake of vitamin D(3), chameleons adjusted their exposure time to UV-B irradiation as if regulating their endogenous production of this vital hormone. When dietary intake was low (1-3 IU/g), they exposed themselves to significantly more UV-producing light; when intake was high (9-129 IU/g), they exposed themselves to less. Vitamin D(3) photoregulation seems to be an important additional component of the function of basking."

"It has been previously shown that artificial UVB exposure of panther chameleons (Furcifer pardalis) enhanced hatching success, vitamin D status of adult females, and epidermal vitamin D production"

11. Ferguson GW, Jones JR, Gehrmann WH, Hammack SH, Talent LG, Hudson RD, Dierenfeld ES, Fitzpatrick MP, Frye FL, et al. Indoor husbandry of the panther chameleon (Furcifer pardalis): effects of dietary vitamins A and D and ultraviolet irradiation on pathology and life-history traits. Zoo Biol. 1996;15:279–99.

"Nutritional metabolic bone disease in juvenile veiled chameleons (Chamaeleo calyptratus) and its prevention."
Journal of Nutrition 140(11):1923-31, 2010 Nov
140(11):1923-31, 2010 Nov

It can be concluded that the indoor rearing of veiled chameleons fed with locusts gut-loaded with 12% Ca, dusted with vitamin A (250,000 IU/kg) (75 mg/kg) and cholecalciferol (25,000 IU/kg) (0.625 mg/kg) immediately before feeding, and provision of long (10 h/d), low irradiation exposure (3–120 mW/cm2 UVB) provided the best combination for the prevention of NMBD.

"Effects of vitamin D3 supplementation and UVb exposure on the growth and plasma concentration of vitamin D3 metabolites in juvenile bearded dragons"

This study shows that 2 h of UVb exposure enables adequate physiological concentrations of plasma vitamin D metabolites to bemaintained in growing bearded dragons. Oral supplementation of vitaminD3 is ineffective in raising plasma concentrations of 25(OH)D3 and 1,25(OH)2D3 to concentrations observed in UVb-exposed animals.

"THE REQUIREMENT FOR NATURAL SUNLIGHT TO PREVENT VITAMIN D DEFICIENCY IN IGUANIAN LIZARDS"
Author(s) :Christopher J. LaingB.V.Sc., B.Sc.(Vet.), Ph.D., Angelika Trube, Glenn M. SheaB.V.Sc., Ph.D., and David R. FraserB.V.Sc., Ph.D.
Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine, 32(3):342-348. 2001.

11. Ferguson GW, Jones JR, Gehrmann WH, Hammack SH, Talent LG, Hudson RD, Dierenfeld ES, Fitzpatrick MP, Frye FL, et al. Indoor husbandry of the panther chameleon (Furcifer pardalis): effects of dietary vitamins A and D and ultraviolet irradiation on pathology and life-history traits. Zoo Biol. 1996;15:279–99.
12. Ferguson GW, Gehrmann WH, Karsten KB, Hammack SH, McRae M, Chen TC, Lung NP, Holick MF. Do panther chameleons bask to regulate endogenous vitamin D3 production? Physiol Biochem Zool. 2003;76:52–9.
13. Ferguson GW, Gehrmann WH, Chen TC, Holick MF. Vitamin D-content of the eggs of the panther chamaeleon Furcifer pardalis: its relationship to UVB exposure/vitamin D-conditions

Evidence of Toxicity of D3:
- In iguanas: Hypervitaminosis D in Green Iguanas
-In chameleons: Indoor husbandry of the panther chameleon Chamaeleo [Furcifer] pardalis: Effects of dietary vitamins A and D and ultraviolet irradiation on pathology and life-history traits

D3 is a fat soluble vitamin, which means that it builds up over time in organs such as the liver. It is not just eaten, used, and discarded. So it can build up to dangerous levels without anyone realizing it because you can't see it being stored. That is why the recommendation for supplementation is so infrequent.

 

[Bush baby]

On a cloudy day, is there enough UV penetrating the cloud cover to stimulate D3 synthesis in chams?

 

[Mike Fisher]

On a cloudy day, is there enough UV penetrating the cloud cover to stimulate D3 synthesis in chams?

Yes, many times more than our puny UVB bulbs.

 

[Bush baby]

Yes, many times more than our puny UVB bulbs.

Thought so.