At a loss for what is wrong

[Beman]

Per your blood work... I can not give you feedback on that. Except it looks very different then the panel that was run on my boy last year. Mine is a two page list for avian/exotic CBC and Plasma Protein. I would call your vet and ask for info on what was run for that test and what it all means.

 

[JulianAndGuthixChams]

Per your blood work... I can not give you feedback on that. Except it looks very different then the panel that was run on my boy last year. Mine is a two page list for avian/exotic CBC and Plasma Protein. I would call your vet and ask for info on what was run for that test and what it all means.

Okay thanks! When we had the test run back in January he had gone into a lot of detail about it all, but he gave me so much information that it was hard to retain it all.

I do know one of the things he mentioned was that it was "fantastic" compared to other bloodwork he had seen and bloodwork research he had been studying on wild chameleons and captive chameleons. He explained why it appeared so great, but I sadly do not remember what all was said.

 

[Beman]

Okay thanks! When we had the test run back in January he had gone into a lot of detail about it all, but he gave me so much information that it was hard to retain it all.

I do know one of the things he mentioned was that it was "fantastic" compared to other bloodwork he had seen and bloodwork research he had been studying on wild chameleons and captive chameleons. He explained why it appeared so great, but I sadly do not remember what all was said.

And that may very well have been the case. Unfortunately the labs we have do not run the Vitamin levels which is what we really need to know lol.

But I can tell you that looking at what you were giving and all the additional info over supplementation is the cause of his issues.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

No, in fact Vitamin levels do not show up on the blood work. It is exactly what @MissSkittles said.

Yes, that's been established already, except that she also said:

It would have depended on which blood test they ran.

Per the bulbs... Hobby standard is 6 months for a reptisun and 12 months for Arcadia. Unless you have a solarmeter 6.5 to check UVI levels and the reduction in bulb strength.

"Hobby standard"? Where is that written, and what is it backed up by?

I cited two articles from the world's leading expert on UVB and reptiles, and from Solarmeter—the company that makes the meters.

Don't shoot the messenger. If you disagree, you should take it up with Dr. Baines, Solarmeter, and the authors at Reptifiles, and perhaps start a class-action suit against Zoo Med Laboratories, Inc. for false advertising & misrepresentation.

 

[Beman]

Yes, that's been established already.


"Hobby standard"? Where is that written, and what is it backed up by?

I cited two articles from the world's leading expert on UVB and reptiles, and from Solarmeter—the company that makes the meters.

Don't shoot the messenger. If you disagree, you should take it up with Dr. Baines, Solarmeter, and the authors at Reptifiles, and perhaps start a class-action suit against Zoo Med Laboratories, Inc. for false advertising & misrepresentation.

If you want to discuss this then make a thread for it rather then turning this thread into your citations... The OP actually has a serious health issue going on. UVB lighting is not even what is causing it. Your derailing this thread... It is a better to be safe then sorry rule of thumb with reptisun bulbs. And YES hobby wide this is the feedback you will get with them. So telling someone that does not have a solarmeter to test the bulb that it is fine for a year when they are not always fine for a year is putting their chameleon at risk.

Per the Blood work your the one that said you thought it would have shown on it. We are reiterating that no it does not.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

If you want to discuss this then make a thread for it rather then turning this thread into your citations...

P-K-B. I corrected a misconception as you very often do.

It is a better to be safe then sorry rule of thumb with reptisun bulbs. And YES hobby wide this is the feedback you will get with them.

Please read those citations again. One specifically mentions 12 months as a "rule of thumb" and the at least one other specifically says "to err on the safe side".

I found supporting statements in aquarium, tortoise, and several lizard forums/sites that say the same things as I cited.

If there is a "hobby standard", it would be established by DR. FRANCES M. BAINES, MA, VETMB, MRCVS, which she did in the two articles I cited by her. She is the recognized expert on the subject.

 

[JulianAndGuthixChams]

To anyone who was following my post, I figured I would update on Julian. I have not seen any improvement in terms of his energy and health. After switching from what the vet recommended (Repashy calcium LodD) to the correct daily calcium supplement (Repashy calcium No D3), his eyes began to seem worse, opening them less, and he is using his tongue much less again. He's not shooting it anymore and he was still using it well a few weeks ago.

He used to come out and move around at least every 1-2 days, but now it is maybe once-twice a week. He still has a desire to eat a lot of the time, but also shows disinterest. I have been giving him hornworms to help with hydration because he is not crawling out to his dripper anymore. He used to drink so much water from his dripper.

Once again I feel at a complete loss for what to do. I am taking him to the vet today to suggest the over-supplementation issue. If another blood test needs to be done then I will do it to test for vitamin levels.

Something I neglected to mention previously is that his tail is still slightly bruised from his previous blood test in January. Please know I mentioned this to my vet 3 separate times as I was concerned about a blood clot. He kept reassuring me that as long as he is using his tail that it shouldn't be much of a concern and that the bruise would go away. It has not.

At what point do I need to question his quality of life? He used to be such a happy boy and only started going down hill in my care when he became constipated once. Thanks for reading, I will be taking all the notes I can when speaking with the vet.

See attached picture from a moment where he opened his eyes for me. Sometimes he does not even react to my presence.

 

[Beman]

To anyone who was following my post, I figured I would update on Julian. I have not seen any improvement in terms of his energy and health. After switching from what the vet recommended (Repashy calcium LodD) to the correct daily calcium supplement (Repashy calcium No D3), his eyes began to seem worse, opening them less, and he is using his tongue much less again. He's not shooting it anymore and he was still using it well a few weeks ago.

He used to come out and move around at least every 1-2 days, but now it is maybe once-twice a week. He still has a desire to eat a lot of the time, but also shows disinterest. I have been giving him hornworms to help with hydration because he is not crawling out to his dripper anymore. He used to drink so much water from his dripper.

Once again I feel at a complete loss for what to do. I am taking him to the vet today to suggest the over-supplementation issue. If another blood test needs to be done then I will do it to test for vitamin levels.

Something I neglected to mention previously is that his tail is still slightly bruised from his previous blood test in January. Please know I mentioned this to my vet 3 separate times as I was concerned about a blood clot. He kept reassuring me that as long as he is using his tail that it shouldn't be much of a concern and that the bruise would go away. It has not.

At what point do I need to question his quality of life? He used to be such a happy boy and only started going down hill in my care when he became constipated once. Thanks for reading, I will be taking all the notes I can when speaking with the vet.

See attached picture from a moment where he opened his eyes for me. Sometimes he does not even react to my presence.

Hi hun. Your still using the repashy calcium plus two times a month correct?

My worry is over supplementation can cause issues with organs as well. Depending on the extent it can cause organ failure. Take a look at this blog https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/d3-poisoning.2401/
She has a few links at the bottom that pertain to your situation as well. Since this has to do with possibly too much D3 and A.

I think that another blood draw is a good idea. However this will not show vitamin A levels. Per the bruised tail to my knowledge this can happen and takes time to go away.

Per quality of life. You will get many answers on this. Personally I feel like this is a question for what you feel is right. If organs are permanently compromised then it may be something to consider.

 

[JulianAndGuthixChams]

Hi hun. Your still using the repashy calcium plus two times a month correct?

My worry is over supplementation can cause issues with organs as well. Depending on the extent it can cause organ failure. Take a look at this blog https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/d3-poisoning.2401/
She has a few links at the bottom that pertain to your situation as well. Since this has to do with possibly too much D3 and A.

I think that another blood draw is a good idea. However this will not show vitamin A levels. Per the bruised tail to my knowledge this can happen and takes time to go away.

Per quality of life. You will get many answers on this. Personally I feel like this is a question for what you feel is right. If organs are permanently compromised then it may be something to consider.

Yes correct, still using the calcium plus two times a month.

In terms of a blood draw, I know my vet had mentioned in January about doing another in a few months to confirm that levels have not changed.

I will take a look at the thread you linked later on today, thank you for providing it.

And yes, the question about quality of life is hard. I understand many can have conflicting opinions. The last thing I want is to have to euthanize. Julian appears to have a will to keep fighting in my eyes, but someday it is truly heartbreaking not seeing him respond to stimuli. I will definitely be asking my vet about what he would do if this were his pet. I trust his judgment very much. He is compassionate yet forward with his advice.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[MissSkittles]

I too have a panther that has (very mild) malaise. Two different vets (one very experienced/knowledgeable with chameleons), blood work, x rays, fecal and all that has been found is mild/moderate mbd found and suspected vitamin deficiency from his previous keeper’s incorrect husbandry. I’ve had him 5-6 months now. His husbandry is as near perfect as I can get it and I’ve followed vet advice. Yet he still isn’t quite right. I really don’t know what else I can do. However, the vet told me that it isn’t up to me. It’s all up to my sweet cham - if he has the fight and will in him to live, he will. I fear the effects of his incorrect beginning will be with him for his life. Every day that I see him moving around, basking and eating is a joyous gift. As long as he doesn’t give up, neither will I.

 

[JulianAndGuthixChams]

I too have a panther that has (very mild) malaise. Two different vets (one very experienced/knowledgeable with chameleons), blood work, x rays, fecal and all that has been found is mild/moderate mbd found and suspected vitamin deficiency from his previous keeper’s incorrect husbandry. I’ve had him 5-6 months now. His husbandry is as near perfect as I can get it and I’ve followed vet advice. Yet he still isn’t quite right. I really don’t know what else I can do. However, the vet told me that it isn’t up to me. It’s all up to my sweet cham - if he has the fight and will in him to live, he will. I fear the effects of his incorrect beginning will be with him for his life. Every day that I see him moving around, basking and eating is a joyous gift. As long as he doesn’t give up, neither will I.

Yes this sounds exactly how it has been for me with Julian. When I rescued him I know that he would have some "quirks" to put it simply, possible MBD, initial dehydration, etc. It's hard looking back at pictures before this major decline because he seemed so happy, like a completely different cham. Thank you for providing your experience, it helps a lot. See picture of Julian not long before he started going downhill, my handsome boy.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I really don’t know what else I can do. However, the vet told me that it isn’t up to me. It’s all up to my sweet cham - if he has the fight and will in him to live, he will.

I agree with this. IME, the higher up the food chain, the stronger the will to survive, and vice versa.
Also—generally speaking—the more fecund an animal is, the weaker the will to survive.
Unfortunately, aside from the bugs they eat, chameleons are considered at/near the bottom of the food chain.

OTOH, I have kept a number of pets at the bottom of the food chain (rodents) who exhibited wills to survive beyond what they were expected to. That suggests to me that there's an individual factor as well, which may be responsible for ensuring lesser species' survival.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."Something I neglected to mention previously is that his tail is still slightly bruised from his previous blood test in January. Please know I mentioned this to my vet 3 separate times as I was concerned about a blood clot. He kept reassuring me that as long as he is using his tail that it shouldn't be much of a concern and that the bruise would go away. It has not"... These bruises take a long time to go away. I've never seen or heard of a chameleon getting a blood clot at the site where blood was taken in all the years I've been keeping them. Hope that helps.

 

[dinomom]

To anyone who was following my post, I figured I would update on Julian. I have not seen any improvement in terms of his energy and health. After switching from what the vet recommended (Repashy calcium LodD) to the correct daily calcium supplement (Repashy calcium No D3), his eyes began to seem worse, opening them less, and he is using his tongue much less again. He's not shooting it anymore and he was still using it well a few weeks ago.

He used to come out and move around at least every 1-2 days, but now it is maybe once-twice a week. He still has a desire to eat a lot of the time, but also shows disinterest. I have been giving him hornworms to help with hydration because he is not crawling out to his dripper anymore. He used to drink so much water from his dripper.

Once again I feel at a complete loss for what to do. I am taking him to the vet today to suggest the over-supplementation issue. If another blood test needs to be done then I will do it to test for vitamin levels.

Something I neglected to mention previously is that his tail is still slightly bruised from his previous blood test in January. Please know I mentioned this to my vet 3 separate times as I was concerned about a blood clot. He kept reassuring me that as long as he is using his tail that it shouldn't be much of a concern and that the bruise would go away. It has not.

At what point do I need to question his quality of life? He used to be such a happy boy and only started going down hill in my care when he became constipated once. Thanks for reading, I will be taking all the notes I can when speaking with the vet.

See attached picture from a moment where he opened his eyes for me. Sometimes he does not even react to my presence.

Ask for a complete panel, that will provide info on organ health.

 

[JulianAndGuthixChams]

I have not updated this thread since Julian's vet visit as I was concerned there would be some skepticism toward my exotic vet's latest advice, but I trust his advice so I will share with anyone reading this thread.
My vet suggested that Julian could possibly be depressed from the winter months and that taking him outside into the sunshine would help, as well as providing more colorful insects. Ever since the vet visit in early April, I have taken Julian outside and let him bask in the sun whenever weather permits. He seems to enjoy it and I see more of his personality show in the sunshine.
For quite awhile he was waking up daily and moving around his enclosure, basking under his light which he had not done in a long time, and was consuming a lot of water. He still has a good appetite a lot of the time, unless he is feeling lethargic.
But still, he is not passing stool/urates/sperm plugs on his own. No matter how much exercise and natural sunlight I provide, he still can only pass bowel movements with the assistance of the vet.
I am waiting on a call today from the vet for further advice. Any other advice would be appreciated, thanks in advanced.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

No matter how much exercise and natural sunlight I provide, he still can only pass bowel movements with the assistance of the vet.

Can you share exactly how this is done?

 

[JulianAndGuthixChams]

Can you share exactly how this is done?

How the vet is able to get him to make bowel movements during visits? I have not seen him do it as my vet isn't allowing me inside the office due to covid, but he has explained to me that it is a procedure he does for many animals that causes the colon, or in this case i guess the cloaca, to release.
Edit: Procedure may not be the best word as it isn't something invasive from what I understand.

 

[dinomom]

How the vet is able to get him to make bowel movements during visits? I have not seen him do it as my vet isn't allowing me inside the office due to covid, but he has explained to me that it is a procedure he does for many animals that causes the colon, or in this case i guess the cloaca, to release.
Edit: Procedure may not be the best word as it isn't something invasive from what I understand.

In birds, we insert a moistened Q tip into cloaca, lift up to make it open and gently press down just above it. That will cause the droppings to mechanically come out.

Again in birds-this problem is frequently caused by a loss of muscle or nerve tone to the cloaca. It can be due for instance to a tumor (or other structure such as retained eggs) in the body that is pressing on the nerve(s) to the lower half of the body, viral diseases that cause nerve malfunction, etc. If the animal has not pooped in quite a while (due to a surgically repaired prolapse for instance) the nerves lose tone and have to "relearn".

The owner can be taught to do this and animal can have a good quality of life.

 

[JulianAndGuthixChams]

In birds, we insert a moistened Q tip into cloaca, lift up to make it open and gently press down just above it. That will cause the droppings to mechanically come out.

Again in birds-this problem is frequently caused by a loss of muscle or nerve tone to the cloaca. It can be due for instance to a tumor (or other structure such as retained eggs) in the body that is pressing on the nerve(s) to the lower half of the body, viral diseases that cause nerve malfunction, etc. If the animal has not pooped in quite a while (due to a surgically repaired prolapse for instance) the nerves lose tone and have to "relearn".

The owner can be taught to do this and animal can have a good quality of life.

Yes I do believe this would be what he does, but will clarify when I speak with him. He suggested that Julian's abdominal muscles could be weak from lack of exercise and this could be causing him to not be able to poop.
If this is something that I need to do for him to have a better quality of life, then I am more than willing to learn. I will ask my vet if this would be possible because as soon as he makes a bowel movement, he is all around much better, but eventually becomes lethargic again and unable to poop.
It has been over 8 months since I have seen Julian strain while making a bowel movement. (Granted I am not with him 24/7, but I do have a camera on him when I'm not home.)

 

[dinomom]

Yes I do believe this would be what he does, but will clarify when I speak with him. He suggested that Julian's abdominal muscles could be weak from lack of exercise and this could be causing him to not be able to poop.
If this is something that I need to do for him to have a better quality of life, then I am more than willing to learn. I will ask my vet if this would be possible because as soon as he makes a bowel movement, he is all around much better, but eventually becomes lethargic again and unable to poop.
It has been over 8 months since I have seen Julian strain while making a bowel movement. (Granted I am not with him 24/7, but I do have a camera on him when I'm not home.)

I think he does not mean "exercise" as we think of it (i.e., abwork, running around LOL) as much as being without the "exercise" of pooping for a while and therefore his muscles became too weak to do it effectively-such as from a very long bout of constipation. So yes if you can help him express his droppings he can hopefully regain this strength. Of course you won't do this without having the vet show you how as you mentioned, and I would also ask him about the possibility of an internal cloacal obstruction such as a swelling or growth.

Since "poop" includes urates and both are toxins, he should feel much better from having this regularly relieved before he gets to the lethargy stage.