Baby Age

[stevereecy]

I've just ready yet another care sheet that insists that chameleons should not be purchased at an age of less than 3 months. I've routinely raised and sold them at less than that age and have personally had no fatalities from any of the folks I've dealt with on either end of the transaction. In the old days (before I took 5 years off from the hobby), it was routine to buy them younger than 3 months. Now chams are sold at an older age. Sometimes even 5 months! And they are paying more for that "priviledge". What changed? Is there any hard data out there that proves that a 3 or 5 month cutoff makes sense? I understand that it is now the Mantra, but what is the foundation for this for this change of heart in the chameleon community?

Babies who are given the right care (i.e., the right setup) will do just as well as the adults. (Fact is, I've never had a baby die, from hatching and through transportation), but I've had adults die. Anecdotally, does this mean that adults are more fragile? Ok, thats a joke, but seriously, I don't understand why it is now conventional wisdom in the marketplace to pay extra for the seller to house them.

In effect, you're paying more for an item and your time with it on this earth is shortened. And you don't have the opportunity to watch it go through the early, and interesting transformation. And finally, you have (debatebly) less time for it to bond with you before its cautiousness sets in. As for me, I want to control the conditions and nutrition my chams get in their early stages and the chams I've gotten at a younger age tend to be more docile.

Yes...I know this is controversial as heck, but what gives? Did someone do a study I'm unaware of?

How many of you have bought babies, cared for them reasonably well, and had trouble???

Are there facts to back up these assertions?

Steve

 

[Justin Carl]

A short and sweet answer for you.
The reason the animal are raised to an older age is for inexperienced owners.

 

[Screameleons]

+1 on the post above. Anything younger than 3 months of age in the hands of an inexperienced keeper is just putting the customer and chameleon at risk. In my experience, you really can't assume that the buyer has the right setup. We've posted a lot of content, distributed care sheets, and lessons on the proper setup and still find that a few buyers start out incorrectly.

Having said that, we do offer them at less than 3 months of age if the buyer has experience.

 

[stevereecy]

+1 on the post above. Anything younger than 3 months of age in the hands of an inexperienced keeper is just putting the customer and chameleon at risk. In my experience, you really can't assume that the buyer has the right setup. We've posted a lot of content, distributed care sheets, and lessons on the proper setup and still find that a few buyers start out incorrectly.

Having said that, we do offer them at less than 3 months of age if the buyer has experience.

I know you by reptutation and I respect your business practices.

But, if the chameleon is 2 months and 29 days, then..??? Ok, I like to kid, but I'm trying to make a point that it varies by individual and circumstance, regardless of whether they are a beginner or not. I don't have near the sales experience that you have, but I've sold to complete novices who had limited reptile experience and they did just fine and not one has fouled it up. The difference in the percentage of failure must be pretty low. I did make sure their set-up was good and have refused to sell to some because I didn't get a "good feel". Perhaps as a response, maybe I'll hand out a "quiz" to potential buyers as a term of sale.

Ok...I'll concede the point that its a good guideline for the novice. But when its written in the care sheets, it seems so definitive that its funny on one hand and a little bit irritating on the other. Some people are clinging to a mantra that cheats them out of the most interesting part of chameleon ownership and steers others away from it. By analogy, its like believing and telling others that if you've never raised a (human) child before and you're going to adopt one, make sure they are at least 12 years old. You never see them take their first steps, or that first trick or treating. Yeah, there might be more risk, but the reward more than makes up for it. The fact is that even precious (human) infants are handed over to first time mothers who have been given a little training. We all know that it ultimately boils down to the responsibility of the parent...if they receive some support, perhaps read a little bit, and pay attention, they'll do just fine.

Fact is that we (all of us breeders) shouldn't hand over a 3 month old chameleon to anyone if they really need that extra cushion...(assuming that cushion exists). I guess its the same as that you wouldn't want a 12-year old human adoptee moving into an environment that would kill a human baby...even if just barely. Seller and buyer both have a responsibility that should provide more than enough safety factor regardless...

Now, to quench any potential flames, I want you all to know that to me, human life, chameleon life, children, and babies are precious. I'm only trying to illustrate a point. There are those who may enjoy raising a baby and they should at least be told that the option does exist, albeit with potentially more risk that can be significantly mitigated with a proper set-up.

Steve

 

[Chuck G]

As a breeder I have only sold chameleons under 3 months to other experienced breeders. The percentage of things going wrong greatly increases selling to a first time or casual buyer.I would rather keep them an extra month when they are stronger.
Heroic Chameleons

 

[chris]

wouldn't also improved sexing have something to do with selling chams over 3 months?

 

[Chuck G]

Good point also.

 

[DarkRapture]

i don't really have anything valid to the point, however, i do agree with what you all are saying. it is heartbreaking to hear stories of people buying very young chameleons and hearing about how they die because of improper care. i am glad to know that you have some kind of screening process, unlike those horrible pet shops out there!

to be honest i knew very little about chameleons until i wanted to buy one. i went online and did quite a bit of research and asked my fellow herper friends as well. it wasn't until i found this site after i purchased my cham, that i found out that i knew so little! i am glad that i had only had him in my care for a couple days while i planned to build his full size enclosure. (i had him in a temp cage that was barely suitable for the little dude!) at least i had the reptisun 5.0 bulb and supplements and hand mister.

i have heard of all the mistakes that people make just from misinformation! i get so frustrated when i look at other sites on the net where people are saying that they have a basking lamp that "stimulates natural behavior through UV light [so minimal there is no measurement!]" as their main sources of UVB!!! sigh.

but yes, i do agree that if someone is experienced and has proven they have a proper habitat set up and schedule for supplements etc., they should be able to have the opportunity to raise a young cham (younger than the 3 months stated). i think that even buying a chameleon at the age of 3-5 months shouldn't be taken lightly either. they are for intermediate reptile keepers and should NOT be purchased with the thought that they are just larger, cooler anoles! someone capable enough to raise a very young cham should in my honest opinion, be the only people allowed to own one in the first place. ah well... at least then there wouldn't be so many dead chams out there

 

[dodolah]

I know you by reptutation and I respect your business practices.

But, if the chameleon is 2 months and 29 days, then..??? Ok, I like to kid, but I'm trying to make a point that it varies by individual and circumstance, regardless of whether they are a beginner or not. I don't have near the sales experience that you have, but I've sold to complete novices who had limited reptile experience and they did just fine and not one has fouled it up. The difference in the percentage of failure must be pretty low. I did make sure their set-up was good and have refused to sell to some because I didn't get a "good feel". Perhaps as a response, maybe I'll hand out a "quiz" to potential buyers as a term of sale.

Ok...I'll concede the point that its a good guideline for the novice. But when its written in the care sheets, it seems so definitive that its funny on one hand and a little bit irritating on the other. Some people are clinging to a mantra that cheats them out of the most interesting part of chameleon ownership and steers others away from it. By analogy, its like believing and telling others that if you've never raised a (human) child before and you're going to adopt one, make sure they are at least 12 years old. You never see them take their first steps, or that first trick or treating. Yeah, there might be more risk, but the reward more than makes up for it. The fact is that even precious (human) infants are handed over to first time mothers who have been given a little training. We all know that it ultimately boils down to the responsibility of the parent...if they receive some support, perhaps read a little bit, and pay attention, they'll do just fine.

Fact is that we (all of us breeders) shouldn't hand over a 3 month old chameleon to anyone if they really need that extra cushion...(assuming that cushion exists). I guess its the same as that you wouldn't want a 12-year old human adoptee moving into an environment that would kill a human baby...even if just barely. Seller and buyer both have a responsibility that should provide more than enough safety factor regardless...

Now, to quench any potential flames, I want you all to know that to me, human life, chameleon life, children, and babies are precious. I'm only trying to illustrate a point. There are those who may enjoy raising a baby and they should at least be told that the option does exist, albeit with potentially more risk that can be significantly mitigated with a proper set-up.

Steve

I think most will agree that taking care young babies are more demanding than taking care the chameleon at 3 months age.
I personally is okay if you want to sell younger babies to experience people or someone that you know will take care of it well, realize that they are more fragile than the older chameleon, responsible enough to do research, and have the correct setup.

the problem is there are many people that would not do that.
Even with 2.5 months old there are still large number of fatalities here and there.

 

[stevereecy]

I think most will agree that taking care young babies are more demanding than taking care the chameleon at 3 months age.
I personally is okay if you want to sell younger babies to experience people or someone that you know will take care of it well, realize that they are more fragile than the older chameleon, responsible enough to do research, and have the correct setup.

the problem is there are many people that would not do that.
Even with 2.5 months old there are still large number of fatalities here and there.

Your points are well taken, as are the others. Especially the sexing issue that was brought up unless they are like veileds where they are dimorphic from birth. But one thing that I can't get behind is the idea that babies are harder to care for. In my house, I think its the opposite because of the way the babies take water. They can stick their whole mouth into a droplet of water that is held together by surface tension, so it only requires the owner to spray their leaves a few times a day. Whereas, with adults, at least because we don't have an automated system, we spritz, and spritz, and spritz the adults for 15 to 20 minutes a day. My total maintenance time, including feeding for the babies is 2 minutes a day. Really. I'd much rather care for 30 babies than even one adult...just easier.

The trick is to get the setup right, and I have a "cookbook" method for that (as do others) which can be replicated by anyone. Basically, a 40 watt tube bulb, a 5.5 or 10 gallon aquarium, a live plant, a pathway to the floor, and a few extra simple maintenance rules like letting the aquarium dry out. Yeah, a UVB light too. In a nutshell, I can teach a beginner to care for a baby easier than I can teach a beginner to care for an older animal due to the higher variability in housing options. The wattage of the heat lamp and food availability issue really clouds the issue because it adds to the complexity that just isn't there with a baby setup. I truly believe that beginners should start with babies, and follow the cookbook procedures until they develop the zen of chameleons and start to figure out what is important before they upgrade enclosures.

These are not mammals. The babies are born with all the capacity to do what the adults do except reproduce and eat larger prey items. The babies commonly available are larger than most of the miniature species. I do think they should be held back until they are large enough to eat commercially available small crickets.

2 minutes a day...never killed one...cookbook instructions. I think the real key is just ensuring that its hardy enough to make the overnight and sexing.

I know most will never agree with me. I do think this dialogue was healthy.

Steve

 

[Chuck G]

Steve,
This is a perfect example of a how this forum works,different points of views on a topic, all valid.
Thanks for bringing it up!

 

[Will Hayward]

Steve,

In your last post you described that there is little difference between what babies can and can't do that adults can. I'm not sure I understand since the issue is to do with what the younger babies can and can't survive through, that the older chameleons can.

A simple example is temperatures. Babies eat and cool extremely fast, and so are less forgiving for minor easily made errors. Honestly, it's more often than once or twice a month that we witness posts that say "I just got a baby veiled two weeks ago, and was wondering if the care sheet I read when I got him, that said I should keep a veiled basking temperature at 105.".



No one is arguing over half months here, the suggestion of three months is very generalized, It encompasses slow growth in babies to still be appropriate for sale at that age, and for those that have sprouted and started of strong at three months, well what wrong can come of being slightly larger, more colourful, and more reliable to sex? If a breeder that is well respected among the community is offering something younger, his reputation stands to say that "Though this chameleon is young, I deem it ready enough for the potential initial abuse from a new keeper".