Baby Chameleon bedtime?

[neomat]

Thank you. So a chameleon is probably not for me, as we'll live around him till 8:30pm (with kids and lights on), and with less lights till 11pm.
Yours are not in your living room? Or everybody uses darkening panels? Or I'm too much concerned about that (or other are less concerned?).

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

A belated welcome to the forum.

Thank you. So a chameleon is probably not for me, as we'll live around him till 8:30pm (with kids and lights on), and with less lights till 11pm.
Yours are not in your living room? Or everybody uses darkening panels? Or I'm too much concerned about that (or other are less concerned?).

My chameleon is in the "great room" (a pox on the architect that came up with that one...), but we spend most of our evening time in the family room across the house.

However, the bearded dragon is in the family room with us, partly to keep the two of them from being aware of each other (they're both males). Beardies are way more sociable (with people) than chameleons, and not as sensitive to family goings-on. He's in a position where he can see the TV or hide from it, and it's amazing (and funny) some of the things he'll watch—or that grab his attention.

But his bedtime is the same—6 pm.

Some here use panels, some have hybrid enclosures (solid on 3 sides), some have dedicated reptile rooms (often a spare bedroom that's quiet)... I'd venture that everyone may do things slightly differently, but we try to make things as stress-free for the little barstads [sic] as possible.

Is there another room/location the enclosure could go with less traffic & disruption?

Just about any reptile has the same/similar circadian rhythms.

 

[neomat]

Thank you for your answer!
According to what I've read, I could go for a hybrid cage (with 3 sides in black plastic panels) to avoid spraying the brand new wall behind. A flexarium with at least a back panel could also do the job. I don't have other location (I thought about a corner of the room, but it will have direct sunlight from ~2pm to ~6pm).

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Thank you for your answer!
According to what I've read, I could go for a hybrid cage (with 3 sides in black plastic panels) to avoid spraying the brand new wall behind. A flexarium with at least a back panel could also do the job. I don't have other location (I thought about a corner of the room, but it will have direct sunlight from ~2pm to ~6pm).

That's not necessarily bad, as long as there's a sufficient stack effect for air movement, and s/he has plenty of live foliage to hide in. But I'd go with white walls—both for the direct sun and because chameleons don't live in black environments; most like things light & airy.

Unless you live in a tropical/sub-tropical climate with high(er) humidity, I suggest hybrid enclosures (which much of the hobby is leaning toward); they much easier to control, environmentally than all-screen enclosures. I like Zen Habitats, largely because it has a substantial enough frame to support lighting, but there are others.
https://www.zenhabitats.com/products/2x2x4-pvc-reptile-enclosure-1
https://www.zenhabitats.com/products/4x2x4-pvc-reptile-enclosures

https://tamura-designs.com/collections/all/products/24x24x48

DIY is another option. LOTS of build threads & blogs here.
You can get exactly what you want.

 

[Mendez]

Please don't mess with these animals' circadian rhythms by forcing them to match your lifestyle. I'm not concerned with an hour either way (like ST/DST), but every hour beyond that increases the stress and likelihood of serious health issues.

Blocking off windows/external light is not enough.



https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091026225744.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4632990/
https://www.pnas.org/content/108/4/1657

I believe that blocking off windows/external light would be enough as long as you keep a consistent schedule going. Wild-caught imports from Madagascar seem to adapt to our time zone over time. And that's an 11 hour time difference. It takes time, but eventually their bodies will adapt to their new sunrise.

The blind mole rat example makes sense as they have had to adapt to a life without sun (light). That's not the case with chameleons. Changing a chameleon's sleep schedule will no doubt be stressful and, most of the time, unnecessary. And I'd agree that if you wanted to keep a chameleon up at night and sleep during the day, you would need to have a room without windows so no natural light slips in.

If you give a chameleon proper day and night cycles, regardless of the sun's position outside, you should be fine. Our artificial lights have taken over the need for the sun...ish. Ofc nothing beats the real deal.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I believe that blocking off windows/external light would be enough as long as you keep a consistent schedule going. Wild-caught imports from Madagascar seem to adapt to our time zone over time. And that's an 11 hour time difference. It takes time, but eventually their bodies will adapt to their new sunrise.

The blind mole rat example makes sense as they have had to adapt to a life without sun (light). That's not the case with chameleons. Changing a chameleon's sleep schedule will no doubt be stressful and, most of the time, unnecessary. And I'd agree that if you wanted to keep a chameleon up at night and sleep during the day, you would need to have a room without windows so no natural light slips in.

If you give a chameleon proper day and night cycles, regardless of the sun's position outside, you should be fine. Our artificial lights have taken over the need for the sun...ish. Ofc nothing beats the real deal.

I have to disagree. Circadian Rhythms (CR) apply to more than just sunlight.
https://www.google.com/search?clien...+circadian+rhythms+when+there+is+no+sunlight?

 

[Mendez]

I was mainly just supporting the argument that you can shift a chameleon's day/night cycle. I'm sure it screws with the circadian rhythm without a doubt, but chameleons (and people) seem to adjust perfectly fine over a period of time.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I was mainly just supporting the argument that you can shift a chameleon's day/night cycle. I'm sure it screws with the circadian rhythm without a doubt, but chameleons (and people) seem to adjust perfectly fine over a period of time.

OK, I'm not sure we're on the same page, here.

Adapting to a different time zone is different than trying to make "noon" happen at (for example) 6 pm, whatever time zone you're in. We can influence light, temperature, and humidity, but what about millibars—subtle changes in pressure?

The most basic change in pressure is the twice daily rise and fall in due to the heating from the sun. Each day, around 4 a.m./p.m. the pressure is at its lowest and near its peak around 10 a.m./p.m. The magnitude of the daily cycle is greatest near the equator decreasing toward the poles.
https://www.weather.gov/jetstream/pressure

Magnetic field changes throughout the day?

The fluxes of lower-energy electrons (<200 keV) in morning are comparable to those in nighttime, whereas those of higher-energy electrons (>200 keV) are significantly larger in the nighttime than the morning.
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2020SW002479

There may be other factors/perceptions as well.

 

[Mendez]

Woah, I never thought about millibars or magnetic fields or other potential factors! This is good info, thanks @Klyde O'Scope! Okay, now it's safe to assume we are on the same page. I agree, there was a lot of stuff that I overlooked when light is probably just one part of the equation. Cool stuff for sure and something I'll look into further.

 

[SueAndHerZoo]

You all provided great information on this topic - thank you all for your input!
Sue

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

It's what we do.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I was mainly just supporting the argument that you can shift a chameleon's day/night cycle. I'm sure it screws with the circadian rhythm without a doubt, but chameleons (and people) seem to adjust perfectly fine over a period of time.

....
Cool stuff for sure and something I'll look into further.

At the risk of beating a dead horse (or a jumping-off point for looking into it further), have you ever done shift work?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_work
The curious part is that—unlike many other topics—Health Effects is the first thing on the Table of Contents, and sections 2, 3, 4, & 6 also deal with health effects (long and short term).

 

[Lindasjackson]

I’ve worked the 11pm to 7am shift for years and at the end it was 7 pm to 7 am shift for the last few years I worked and I can tell you that really messes with your psyche and your body! I have a hard time sleeping at night now but can sleep just fine in the daytime. I always was a night owl though, even as a child.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I had a temp job back in the late '70s that was a split-shift. Four hours working, four hours off, then another four hours working. What the heck can you do for 4 hours in the middle of the night? And we still only got paid for 8 hrs.

I can't say it was the worst job I ever had by a longshot, but it sure messed with my biologicals.