Baby Parsons

[chamlover]

Boy oh boy, what an interesting thread. Do buy or not to buy. As much as i would love to buy one, first, i wouldn't because i don't have the knowledge that it would take to keep one and second, i could not support the taking of an illegal species from the wild. Will the animal die if someone experienced doesn't purchase it? Probably. And that is a horrible, horrible, horrible thought. BUT, if EVERYONE stopped buying them, then they would stop taking them from the wild and perhaps give them a chance for their numbers to recover.

As you know i just "rescued" a melleri from another breeder that was close to death, another w/c. I took it because he gave it to me. but if he would have charged me for it i would not have taken it. That might sound pretty cold-hearted but i wouldn't have bought it because to do so will only guarantee that he will buy more and do the same thing all over again. And again. And again. I would have probably gone outside and then cried all the way home knowing that beautiful animal would be dead within days. But, IMO we have to say NO. We have to support the ban on these animals. Maybe, just maybe then they have a prayer to survive long enough so that hopefully we will all be able to get one "legally" in years to come. What we are talking about here is no better than buying an orangatan or some other animal that is on the endangered list. We all know that it is not legal and to support the purchase of these 3 will only be the beginning. Because next month there will be another 3, etc.

Thanks Dodolah for sharing that information with us. I know it isn't something you are proud of that is happening in your country. But is this country much better if we are even contemplating buying these animals? Of course i think alot of never knew this, i know i didn't until i read this thread. Just my .02 worth.

Maybe we do need to pay more attention to where all the animals that we are getting come form. Any suggestions on how to do so?

Debby

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

its hard to pay attention in animal trade, animals are handed off so many times before they get to the owner

 

[Klemins]

Just a note: I have had a WC (I'm fairly certain) Panther sold to me as CB, and it came with filarial worms. Not sure if it came from Madagascar or Indo, though looking back, it may have been a hybrid.

So most, if not all Parsonii, that are being kept now are illegal? What happened to the original CB babies that were produced?

 

[luckykarma]

As much as I would love to own a Parsonii I have to agree with Chamlover.

I lived in Asia for 4 years, one of those being in Bangkok. There was a local animal market part of a huge market outside of Bangkok. You could get almost whatever you wanted there. Very sad. I know its hard to make a living in many countries especially Asia and anyway to make it ie from stolen artifacts to gems to animals will always be viable as the money they can "score" opposed to normal wages there is incredible.

Like most have said, no market no reason to do it. I hope no one buy these little guys. Better they be donated to a zoo than be a testing ground for pricing. I completely agree if these fetch those high prices the world will be watching and more will show up.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Well the fact of the matter is they will probably sell them at those prices. It isn't the first time Parsonii have been sold in the states and they normally go for much more than that.

What would it take for importers to stop bringing them in? I mean in only know of about 30 that have come in this year in the US, which is higher than the past few years. I know a great deal more are sold in Europe and Asia. I just wonder how have the populations been doing since 95? How come they totally banned the exportation of Parsonii and did not just put a quota on them like Panthers? And I just wanted to say that under 1% of the Parsonii imported before 95 lived over 5 years and only a few hundred have ever hatched alive in captivity.

-chris

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

http://translate.google.com/transla...17202/chamfarm.html&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=ja&tl=en



a ban instead of quota, you have " if i cant do it no one can " Abate to thank for that

 

[Chuck G]

This topic always gets the most opinions,even more than vitamin A!
I don't want to be that guy but this wouldn't be a discussion if these guys were a 100 bucks.People without experience with these guys would be willing to gamble on them. The higher price tag keeps most people away from them.
If anyone does buy one of these and I am in no way endorsing this,feel free to pm me if you need info.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

ITS THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS by the time they are ready to be sold to an owner. Thats why I would buy if i had the time, money, knowledge

 

[Dean Pulcini]

This has been a very active thread with alot of opinions Its good to participate in a meaningful discussion on a contraversal subject. With that being said I feel that there will always be demand for rare things living or inanimate and by not purchasing them will not stop this activity the world is just to big. I feel in the right hands these chameleons can breed in captivity successfully. I think we should at least try there have been many animals that have been saved by Mans intervention Pandas come to mind. If you think that these chameleons will make a comeback on there own you are sadly mistaken due to the destruction of all of Madagascar not just the NE forests.

 

[Chameleon Company]

A lot of good points here.

In no particular order ....

So most, if not all Parsonii, that are being kept now are illegal? What happened to the original CB babies that were produced?

They are of illegal origins, but came into the U.S. fully legal. Of those hatched out stateside by Ken and Donovan, I got about 8-10 of those earlier in the decade, and some from others of 90's origins. All were alive and thriving when I last had them, some of which I had for two years. They moved to others in a business rearrangement in 2002. I know that most are now dead. I do not know if all are now dead.

Someone mentioned that their opinion that Madagascar had not performed satisfactorily in preserving parsonii habitat was justification to get more into captive breeding programs. They also cited "advances in the hobby" (my paraphrase) as justification to minimize respect for past failures. I can absolutely guarantee that the movement of bloodlines from the wild to captivity will guarantee the demise of that bloodline quicker than if it was left in Madagascar. That is not even debatable. I am sorry to say, but the original opinion was either extreme naivete or wishful thinking of the greedy kind. I'll assume the former. For every success in CBB parsonii, there will be many more failures, to include the death of most of the breeders in captivity without producing one viable offspring. The very infrequent successes of some breeders will still have the net result of them painting themselves into genetic corners faster than the Little Dutch Boy could with a paint sprayer.

My opinion is that this species will do just fine in Madagascar as currently managed, and as Mada continues its ascent from terrific poverty, providing they can control poaching. The illegal taking of this animal from the wild hurts its survival chances in every realm of its existence where it happens.

 

[Dean Pulcini]

Thats the problem they are to poor to stop the illegal collecting and I have no faith in there ability to manage or protect special areas they will go the way of the pygmy who are being trampled on a daily bases.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

LEgal, properly managed farms wold be great.

Look, for example, at Tanzania. No WC three-horned species wil be exported form the wild in Tanzania with 2009 quotas. This means the only animals coming will be F1's. Since MBT is known to be the only ones with F1's, there's a good chance that exports of such animals will be greatly reduced, save true F1's.

If that works, then everyone will be happy. Except the mass exporters. HArd core importers will get their hands on quality and expensive animals, and the cheap cheap cheap wC animals will be rare, if not impossible.

The end result is that WC animals will not be cheap alternatives as pets. In my opinion, THAT is a big problem with the industry. Too many people buy WC animals as "pets".

 

[Sepioteuthis]

With that being said I feel that there will always be demand for rare things living or inanimate and by not purchasing them will not stop this activity the world is just to big.

And yet, that is exactly how conservation organizations managed to save the eliphants - by convincing the general public to not buy ivory.

I think we should at least try there have been many animals that have been saved by Mans intervention Pandas come to mind.

Pandas weren't saved by private collectors buying panda cubs from poachers. They are being saved by wildlife conservation organizations, governments and donations from millions of people worldwide. In addition to that, the biggest panda breeding program is in China, in the panda's own habitat.
The equivalent would be to apply for conservation grants and set up shop as a non-profit organization in Madagascar, breeding parsonii and returning the offspring to the wild.



Suzanne

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

JIM
oh how i hope you were not referring to me when i said

" and we as a hobby have come a long way from when we were raping the parsons. which is supposedly why ardi fought so hard to have them banned in the first place, massive loss numbers and poor rate of success in breeding.

With no effective habitat protection, and those looking to start farms getting the run around time is running out."

not one time did i make any reference to advances in parsonii husbandry, let alone breeding techniques.

I think everyone can agree as a hobby we have come a long way since then in may aspects, parsonii breeding not one of them

that statement was more directed at why there was a total ban, as opposed to a quota

 

[Dean Pulcini]

Theres more of demand for horn then ever. Ever see an Asian marketplace.
And who started the conservation of pandas It wasn't the pandas it was man.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I missed a good question

Which also goes to some other concerns raised.

What would it take for importers to stop bringing them in? I mean in only know of about 30 that have come in this year in the US, which is higher than the past few years. I know a great deal more are sold in Europe and Asia. I just wonder how have the populations been doing since 95? How come they totally banned the exportation of Parsonii and did not just put a quota on them like Panthers?

When quotas were put in, as many know but for those who don't, only four of the 60+ species in Mada were allowed to still be exported. So, it wasn't so much that parsonii were "excluded" as it was that only four species were deemed viable enough to continue as exports. While some poaching can always occur, if and when CITES wants to clamp down more, they will elevate them to Appendix I. That takes Europe and the U.S. and most of the developed world, except for a very lax Asia, off the customer lists. Its the arrow still in their quiver.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

"
Someone mentioned that their opinion that Madagascar had not performed satisfactorily in preserving parsonii habitat was justification to get more into captive breeding programs. "

if you were talking about me, i was actually saying that since there is a total ban, habitat loss prevention is doing nothing compared to the strain created by poaching, and it doesnt look like poaching is slowing down, nor is habitat prevention speeding up. If there are those are trying to breed, its the lesser of two evils that it go to such a person as opposed to a fanatic

They also cited "advances in the hobby" (my paraphrase) as justification to minimize respect for past failures. I can absolutely guarantee that the movement of bloodlines from the wild to captivity will guarantee the demise of that bloodline quicker than if it was left in Madagascar. That is not even debatable. I am sorry to say, but the original opinion was either extreme naivete or wishful thinking of the greedy kind. I'll assume the former.

im just hoping ur post wasnt directed at me, if it was i need to make things black and white, with little room to assume things


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My main point is that habitat loss prevention should be the first concern. no natural habitat for an animal not capable of being bred in cap is a recipe for extinction.

no one is saying those that gave up dont have good reason.

I beleive there has been True CBB parsonii. induced ovi or not. it is possible.

and if there is habitat loss prevention the species is doomed either way.

man has caused this problem. and man will have to stop man, or create a solution. not doing anything is not a solution.

Black market status, high prices, controversy, convos such as this in some small way create awareness and understanding, which is the very first step in effective conservation efforts

 

[Sepioteuthis]

Theres more of demand for horn then ever. Ever see an Asian marketplace.

With horn do you mean eliphant tusks or like rhino horns, if the latter, that's a completely different substance/material than ivory. Just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

And who started the conservation of pandas It wasn't the pandas it was man.

I never said it was the pandas. All I tried to point out is that there is a huge difference between a worldwide conservation effort and what were talking about here with individuals buying these parsonii.
And by the way, the pandas aren't saved yet - they still have a very long way to go.

Honest question: Can anyone name an example of a species that was saved by hobbyists?

 

[Champhibians]

Yes

Hey just letting eveyone I just got the Bradypodion Oxyrhinum.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

that hardly seems like an honest question for obvious reasons

but on that note why dont we talk about what actually does save a species?

Outside or habitat conservation ( which i have been talking about since my first post and no one has yet provided any data to support anything making a diff)

so outside of habitat conservation, what else saves a species?
can any disagree that a vital part of saving a species ( esp endangered ones ) is establishing captive breeding programs?

do we have to start posting examples of species saved in a very large part if not soley by captive breeding programs?

so since its a fact that species have been " saved " by captive breeding progams. lets talk about the programs and what exactly makes them so different, and noble in contrast to "hobbyist" ( AS WAS SO VAGUELY PUT ) attempts