Bees and Wasp
- Thread starter Jordan
- Start date
westcoastchameleons
New Member
i have heard of many chams dying from eating bess/wasps, prob. wouldnt take a chance!
Jordan
New Member
I actually saw this on another forum site that talked about this and one book I read talked about how to make them safer (bees). If you place them in the fridge like other bugs they will slow down and not be able to fly. You can grab them with tweezers and cut the tip off the stinger. This way the bee does not die. Then let one lose in the cage.
Not really sure if I wanted to try it or not. That is why I was asking if anyone else in here had done it or not. I doubt they could punture the scales with the stinger. The mouth, throat, stomach and tongue would be a different story. Just not sure if the stomach acids would take care of the poison enough for them to be offered consistently. To late in the year now, though.
Not really sure if I wanted to try it or not. That is why I was asking if anyone else in here had done it or not. I doubt they could punture the scales with the stinger. The mouth, throat, stomach and tongue would be a different story. Just not sure if the stomach acids would take care of the poison enough for them to be offered consistently. To late in the year now, though.
Will Hayward
New Member
Would you care to provide a few or more references? Since you have heard of many instances, shouldn't be hard for you to respond with some.
podenbeck
New Member
No Cham info in this article but some data from a study on insect toxins on mice and a lizard that is an ant harvester specialist. Keep this in mind when reading this article:
"Toxicity of venoms is difficult to quantify in an unbiased manner and will vary among target species. It is also confounded by responses to the venom that are due to immune system disorders (such as hypersensitivity and allergies). For this reason, morbidity and mortality data may not be the best comparative method to classify venom toxicity (Schmidt 1986b)."
http://ufbir.ifas.ufl.edu/Chap23.htm
Look at the difference in the LD50 (lethal dose that has a response of 50% mortality) for a harvester ant toxin on the lizard and the mouse. Its way higher in the lizard it has adapted. The lizard is a specialist but at least there is some data here that shows that there are MAJOR differences between species even though their mass is similar. This certainly does not point in anyway to say feed chams hymenoptera, but it does not suggest that its not possible in anyway. This is interesting to me because I work at an enviro tox lab I mostly work with heavy metals and tadpoles but still this stuff is interesting.
"Toxicity of venoms is difficult to quantify in an unbiased manner and will vary among target species. It is also confounded by responses to the venom that are due to immune system disorders (such as hypersensitivity and allergies). For this reason, morbidity and mortality data may not be the best comparative method to classify venom toxicity (Schmidt 1986b)."
http://ufbir.ifas.ufl.edu/Chap23.htm
Look at the difference in the LD50 (lethal dose that has a response of 50% mortality) for a harvester ant toxin on the lizard and the mouse. Its way higher in the lizard it has adapted. The lizard is a specialist but at least there is some data here that shows that there are MAJOR differences between species even though their mass is similar. This certainly does not point in anyway to say feed chams hymenoptera, but it does not suggest that its not possible in anyway. This is interesting to me because I work at an enviro tox lab I mostly work with heavy metals and tadpoles but still this stuff is interesting.
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westcoastchameleons
New Member
Chris from www.reptilehavenonline.com told me he has had three different chams die from eating bees while outside....
My vieled will eat any form of wasp readily, I have never removed the stingers. I did place in a honey bee after removing the stinger and she won't even touch it. Seems to me she knows what is ok and whats not instinctively. Also how can you prove a chameleon died from eating an insect, there could be so many factors involved and even then whos to say it was the venom and not an outside source such as chemicals/pesticides.
Will Hayward
New Member
Ok, that's one...
westcoastchameleons
New Member
at the same time i can say it was most definetley the bees that did it, you may be right about a possible pesticide...i will look into it more.
westcoastchameleons
New Member
i said many chams, not many different people, he had three chams die after eating bees..
Will Hayward
New Member
Ah, so many chams is just three...
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
There is always an issue when an individual with a biased perspective presents a fundamental husbandry issue to an unquestioning individual as a factor out of their control when in fact it has much more to do with the general conditions of that individual's facilities....you should always consider the source of your information, even "experience"...
Chris
Chris
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westcoastchameleons
New Member
to me this is many chams...
Will Hayward
New Member
To confirm this, I emailed Chris asking the same question;
So just to reiterate, no one as of yet as given solid proof or account of these insects to have killed chameleons. Now thats not to say that they cannot, but its meant to mean that no one should be telling others to NOT use bees when they have not done their own research or have access to definitive research results from others.
westcoastchameleons
New Member
i personally went to oceanside to see chris, to get some cages, when i was there i asked him about feeding bees.....he said 3 of his chams died after eating bees accidently......maybe he doesnt recall!
LOL ... My exact thoughts.
Whether bees or wasps are safe for chameleons or not, they are definitely not a feeder I want to start using.
ouch
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
I've used the LARVAE of wasps before.
We had this big old wooden dog houses in our back yard, and wasps would continuously make nests in them, so I began to torch all the wasps and take the nest, and take out all the larvae with tweezers (enough to last a week, almost every week over the summer, for 2 chams and several geckos).
All I did was make a torch, connect it to a long piece of bamboo, and stood as far away as I could while I torched all the wasps until it was safe to go knock the hive down. The hives were never completed, and were just the honeycombe or whatever you'd call it, so I didn't have to rip anything open and I just plucked the dozens and dozens of larvae out of their little Matrix-like cacoon things.
All of my animals loved them more than most other feeders, and there were no problems to feeding them.
We had this big old wooden dog houses in our back yard, and wasps would continuously make nests in them, so I began to torch all the wasps and take the nest, and take out all the larvae with tweezers (enough to last a week, almost every week over the summer, for 2 chams and several geckos).
All I did was make a torch, connect it to a long piece of bamboo, and stood as far away as I could while I torched all the wasps until it was safe to go knock the hive down. The hives were never completed, and were just the honeycombe or whatever you'd call it, so I didn't have to rip anything open and I just plucked the dozens and dozens of larvae out of their little Matrix-like cacoon things.
All of my animals loved them more than most other feeders, and there were no problems to feeding them.
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