Beginner seeking advice

[Umbra]

Hello chameleon forum members!
I have been reading post obsessively for about 4 days now attempting to learn as much as I can about keeping veiled chameleons. I recently came about 3 wild caught veileds unexpectedly and have been frantically gathering supplies and building a habitat for them. Two are a mating pair, and I believe the female has been knocked up very recently. The third was found in poor condition, and I’ll make a separate thread in the proper forum to discuss. I live in FL, and have a nice shady porch that doesn’t get direct sunlight, but stays very comfortable temp and humidity-wise for them, and they have started to settle in nicely (they drank and ate today unless my crickets have Houdini’ed their way out). I have been very careful to limit my interaction with them to reduce stress. I have many questions, and I am a sleep-deprived mess from obsessively researching and nervously helicopter parenting them, I don’t want to fail these guys! I’m sorry in advance for all my questions

Here’s what I need help with:

-what type of uvb bulb do I need for a shady patio that gets plenty of indirect sun, but no direct rays? How long should the light stay on?

- how close is too close for the mating pair? They were settling in together nicely at first, but have since separated to different plants. They’re able to wander, and have swapped plants twice. I have kept a close eye and have separated the female from the male once so far.

-how often should I be misting? I have been misting 3-4x a day for 3-4 mins to give them plenty of chances to drink (I have read on here that this is the best course for wild caught) and I have also set up a crude dripper for the short term.

-for my free rangers, how do you keep your feeders from running away? Sometimes my crickets jump off the plants and hide under the pots. Any good way to keep them contained to the plants?

-when should I present the female with a laying box/how will I know when she is ready to lay? The female has orange splotches over the body, but she doesn’t show much aggression to the male (no dark color change, but one instance where she hissed at him when he was in the way of her path).

-when and how should I begin to treat for parasites? The mating pair seems very healthy, but the lone male I’m concerned about.

-what are some good feeders that have a lot of vitamin A

Habitat info:
-extra thick ficus Benjamina
-extra thick umbrella plant
-towels under high traffic areas to cushion falls (the male likes climbing the screen at times)
-temps are in the high 80s to low 90s
-outside humidity avg is 65-70%, getting the tools to measure today.


Let me know if you need any info from me! Don’t roast me too badly, I’m trying my best ;-; Thank you for your time reading this

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi and welcome. So the very first and one of the most important things you need to know, is that each chameleon needs to be kept in it’s own seperate enclosure and not even be able to see any of the others. The majority of reptiles are loners and it is not only very stressful for them to be with others, but they are very likely to fight and hurt each other. At the very least, one will always be the dominant one and the other(s) won’t be able to get enough access to food, basking area heat and all else. So, each of your chameleons is needing their very own 2x2x4’ enclosure. Then they need a T5HO fixture with either a ReptiSun 5.0 or Arcadia 6% uvb light. Unfortunately the off brand (and cheaper) uvb lights can not be trusted to be adequate. Then supplements of a phosphorus free calcium without D3 to be lightly dusted at every feeding except one every other week that you’ll instead use either Repashy Calcium Plus LoD or ReptiVite with D3. Lots of safe, clean live plants and branches/vines to travel to create a forest edge with lots of area to take shade or hide in and enough free space to bask. Basking area will need to be about 8-9” below your uvb. Basking temp for males is max of 85 and for the girl, 80. I feed all of my adult chameleons about 4 medium sized feeders, 3 days a week plus occasional treats. This keeps my girls from overly producing eggs (actually neither lays eggs because of limiting food and temps) and my males fit and trim. Humidity needs to between 30-50% during the day. It’s hard for us to achieve night time temp drops below 68 here in Florida, but if we can, then we can use a fogger at night to boost humidity as high as it can go, which simulates the natural hydration they get in the wild thru fog. These are just the very basic needs and I didn’t even go over feeders yet. lol The best thing for you to do is rad all of these modules so that you understand not only what to do, but why to do it. https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-husbandry-program-getting-started-with-chameleons/
Last year I was given a male veiled that was caught locally and not wanted by the kid who had him. Poor guy is beautiful, but was in very poor health because of parasites - giardia specifically. It has taken a few rounds of meds to get him cleared of it and lots of cleaning/sanitizing and throwing plants away and replacing them. While he is clear now, poor guy is obviously depressed at losing his freedom. Either that or he is an old man cham. Anyhow, you will be needing a good vet to see all of them and have fecals done to check and treat for parasites. I’m in Brevard and for simple things like that, I go to Dr Brennan at https://cocoaveterinary.com/ For things more serious, I go to Dr Bogoslavsky in Orlando at https://myavho.com/
With three chameleons now, and obviously you live here in FL, I suggest breeding your own feeders. While we can’t have dubia roaches, we can have discoids and they are very similar and easy to breed. I keep my colony in the garage where they get the heat that they love. I just started breeding my own crickets and in the past have tried my hand with varied success at breeding superworms, mealworms (for my geckos), hornworms, silkworms and wax worms. http://www.lindasgonebuggie.com/page/397479218 is a great FL based vendor for feeders - great prices! The forum sponsors are also fantastic bug vendors. It’s just as important to feed your feeder bugs well so that they are nutritious and not just exoskeletons.
Adding feeders graphics and some of my enclosures to give you an idea of what your new friends will be needing for homes.

 

[elizaann2]

Hello and welcome! You've gotten a lot of great advice from @MissSkittles ! I hope you stick around so we can see how your 3 chameleons do!

 

[Umbra]

Hi and welcome. So the very first and one of the most important things you need to know, is that each chameleon needs to be kept in it’s own seperate enclosure and not even be able to see any of the others. The majority of reptiles are loners and it is not only very stressful for them to be with others, but they are very likely to fight and hurt each other. At the very least, one will always be the dominant one and the other(s) won’t be able to get enough access to food, basking area heat and all else. So, each of your chameleons is needing their very own 2x2x4’ enclosure. Then they need a T5HO fixture with either a ReptiSun 5.0 or Arcadia 6% uvb light. Unfortunately the off brand (and cheaper) uvb lights can not be trusted to be adequate. Then supplements of a phosphorus free calcium without D3 to be lightly dusted at every feeding except one every other week that you’ll instead use either Repashy Calcium Plus LoD or ReptiVite with D3. Lots of safe, clean live plants and branches/vines to travel to create a forest edge with lots of area to take shade or hide in and enough free space to bask. Basking area will need to be about 8-9” below your uvb. Basking temp for males is max of 85 and for the girl, 80. I feed all of my adult chameleons about 4 medium sized feeders, 3 days a week plus occasional treats. This keeps my girls from overly producing eggs (actually neither lays eggs because of limiting food and temps) and my males fit and trim. Humidity needs to between 30-50% during the day. It’s hard for us to achieve night time temp drops below 68 here in Florida, but if we can, then we can use a fogger at night to boost humidity as high as it can go, which simulates the natural hydration they get in the wild thru fog. These are just the very basic needs and I didn’t even go over feeders yet. lol The best thing for you to do is rad all of these modules so that you understand not only what to do, but why to do it. https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-husbandry-program-getting-started-with-chameleons/
Last year I was given a male veiled that was caught locally and not wanted by the kid who had him. Poor guy is beautiful, but was in very poor health because of parasites - giardia specifically. It has taken a few rounds of meds to get him cleared of it and lots of cleaning/sanitizing and throwing plants away and replacing them. While he is clear now, poor guy is obviously depressed at losing his freedom. Either that or he is an old man cham. Anyhow, you will be needing a good vet to see all of them and have fecals done to check and treat for parasites. I’m in Brevard and for simple things like that, I go to Dr Brennan at https://cocoaveterinary.com/ For things more serious, I go to Dr Bogoslavsky in Orlando at https://myavho.com/
With three chameleons now, and obviously you live here in FL, I suggest breeding your own feeders. While we can’t have dubia roaches, we can have discoids and they are very similar and easy to breed. I keep my colony in the garage where they get the heat that they love. I just started breeding my own crickets and in the past have tried my hand with varied success at breeding superworms, mealworms (for my geckos), hornworms, silkworms and wax worms. http://www.lindasgonebuggie.com/page/397479218 is a great FL based vendor for feeders - great prices! The forum sponsors are also fantastic bug vendors. It’s just as important to feed your feeder bugs well so that they are nutritious and not just exoskeletons.
Adding feeders graphics and some of my enclosures to give you an idea of what your new friends will be needing for homes.
View attachment 359133View attachment 359134View attachment 359135View attachment 359136View attachment 359137

Thanks so much for all the info! I currently have them on ficus Benjamina and an umbrella plant. Planning on making a free range style enclosure, with opaque dividers to keep them out of sight of each other. Just bought the T5HO and all the supplements, I also bought some silkworms to feed to the male who isn’t doing great. He has swollen eyes, but no indications of any sort of bacterial infection, and he’s very lively, and roams around the patio often so I’m leaning towards a vitamin A deficiency or early stages of parasite infestation. I do think it’s definitely something other than depression due to confinement, his colors were dark even in the wild where he was caught, and he was found on a very low part of a bush which is extremely unusual from what I have observed in the wild. I’ve been gutloading crickets with celery, but I’m switching to leafy greens today since I was finally able to run out and get some. As far as humidity goes, could I use an automated misting system instead of a fogger? RE: breeding feeders, I read one of your posts on silkworm breeding recently, loved it, and my friend who gave me these guys is working on building up a colony today as his child support fee. Thanks again for the great info!

 

[Umbra]

Hello and welcome! You've gotten a lot of great advice from @MissSkittles ! I hope you stick around so we can see how your 3 chameleons do!

She is a legend! I’ve seen her posts all over the forum, I’ve absorbed lots of great info from her. Don’t worry, I’ll be around! I’m a big herper, so I’ll likely begin posting field observations once I get settled with these guys and can get back on the hunt for more populations and species (currently obsessed with finding panthers but zero luck . I’ve noticed a lot of habitat trends that are the opposite of what you’d believe to be ideal conditions that are very interesting and could help others with husbandry/mimicry of natural habitat.

 

[kinyonga]

You said…”how close is too close for the mating pair?”…I would separate them now. They may seem to be ok with each other, but there is hidden stress between them often and a gravid female will definitely be capable of damaging a male if he tries to mate with her and she’s not receptive. Better safe than sorry.

You said…”when should I present the female with a laying box/how will I know when she is ready to lay?”…I would give her one now so she has time to get used to it and find it. From the day they mated it will be about 30 to 40 days before she’s will be ready to lay the eggs…but it’s not written in stone.

Here’s how it should go…as she approaches lay time, she will get restless and look for a place to lay the eggs, may eat less, drink more, dig some test holes. Eventually she should chose one hole and dig it until she’s happy with it…then, usually in the evening, she will turn around, butt down in the hole and lay all of her eggs. She may sleep in the hole. She should then fill the hole in, tamp it down, return to the branches, hungry and thirsty and tired.

If it doesn’t go this way, if she starts sleeping during the day, becomes lethargic, sits low in the branches, etc…then post on hear right away. She may be in trouble.

You said…”when and how should I begin to treat for parasites? ”…first test to see if they have parasites. It can take more than one test depending on the parasite. If the load is heavy, be very careful how you treat them…when the parasites are alive, the chameleon cope with them in a different way than once they are dead. Dead one are “garbage” and too much “garbage” can be toxic to the chameleon. Make sure the vet you go to is a good chameleon vet.

You said…”what are some good feeders that have a lot of vitamin A”…many feeders don’t have the right form of vitamin A in them…or don’t have enough.

There are two forms of vitamin A…prOformed (carotenes such as beta carotene from plant/veggie sources) and prEformed (retinol/animal sources). It’s thought that some/all chameleons can not convert the beta carotene into the prEformed type so it’s not of any use to them.

PrOformed can not be overdosed…the body converts it as needed.
PrEformed vitamin A can overdose because it’s ready to go and fat soluble.

To try to e sure the chameleons get what they need without overdosing it, we use a vitamin powder with prEformed vitamin A on the insects twice a month lightly.

Also, it’s important the vitamin D3 is balanced with the vitamin A.
Vitamin D3 is also fat soluble and can be overdosed. D3 from the sun and exposure to UVB lights should be controlled by the chameleons body so that it gets only what it needs. We do the 2 doses a month lightly to ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 and hoping it gets the rest from its exposure to the UVB and direct sunlight.

Hope this helps.

 

[Umbra]

Kinyonga, thank you for the through reply! I have separated them for the time being, I did want to note that this pair was found close together on the same limb, and have seemed tolerant of each other, but regardless, I have separated them they keep switching plants to “hang out” with each other (I know, I know, it’s probably a dominance display but I like to imagine they’re besties), and put up a temporary crude divider to hide them from each other. I’m working on building a screened enclosure for them to keep them separate. I also gave all three their first dose of multivitamin to start with. Regarding Vit A, I have read several posts on here that have said silkworms are a good organic source of Vit A and were recommended by a vet to treat deficient chameleons in tangent with the A drops/shots.
For parasite testing, is this something I can do at home? I’m aware of fecal floats, but anything else? I am a poor college student, and vets are very expensive.

 

[Umbra]

You said…”how close is too close for the mating pair?”…I would separate them now. They may seem to be ok with each other, but there is hidden stress between them often and a gravid female will definitely be capable of damaging a male if he tries to mate with her and she’s not receptive. Better safe than sorry.

You said…”when should I present the female with a laying box/how will I know when she is ready to lay?”…I would give her one now so she has time to get used to it and find it. From the day they mated it will be about 30 to 40 days before she’s will be ready to lay the eggs…but it’s not written in stone.

Here’s how it should go…as she approaches lay time, she will get restless and look for a place to lay the eggs, may eat less, drink more, dig some test holes. Eventually she should chose one hole and dig it until she’s happy with it…then, usually in the evening, she will turn around, butt down in the hole and lay all of her eggs. She may sleep in the hole. She should then fill the hole in, tamp it down, return to the branches, hungry and thirsty and tired.

If it doesn’t go this way, if she starts sleeping during the day, becomes lethargic, sits low in the branches, etc…then post on hear right away. She may be in trouble.

You said…”when and how should I begin to treat for parasites? ”…first test to see if they have parasites. It can take more than one test depending on the parasite. If the load is heavy, be very careful how you treat them…when the parasites are alive, the chameleon cope with them in a different way than once they are dead. Dead one are “garbage” and too much “garbage” can be toxic to the chameleon. Make sure the vet you go to is a good chameleon vet.

You said…”what are some good feeders that have a lot of vitamin A”…many feeders don’t have the right form of vitamin A in them…or don’t have enough.

There are two forms of vitamin A…prOformed (carotenes such as beta carotene from plant/veggie sources) and prEformed (retinol/animal sources). It’s thought that some/all chameleons can not convert the beta carotene into the prEformed type so it’s not of any use to them.

PrOformed can not be overdosed…the body converts it as needed.
PrEformed vitamin A can overdose because it’s ready to go and fat soluble.

To try to e sure the chameleons get what they need without overdosing it, we use a vitamin powder with prEformed vitamin A on the insects twice a month lightly.

Also, it’s important the vitamin D3 is balanced with the vitamin A.
Vitamin D3 is also fat soluble and can be overdosed. D3 from the sun and exposure to UVB lights should be controlled by the chameleons body so that it gets only what it needs. We do the 2 doses a month lightly to ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 and hoping it gets the rest from its exposure to the UVB and direct sunlight.

Hope this helps.

(forgot to hit reply and I don't know how to delete messages)
Kinyonga, thank you for the through reply! I have separated them for the time being, I did want to note that this pair was found close together on the same limb, and have seemed tolerant of each other, but regardless, I have separated them they keep switching plants to “hang out” with each other (I know, I know, it’s probably a dominance display but I like to imagine they’re besties), and put up a temporary crude divider to hide them from each other. I’m working on building a screened enclosure for them to keep them separate. I also gave all three their first dose of multivitamin to start with. Regarding Vit A, I have read several posts on here that have said silkworms are a good organic source of Vit A and were recommended by a vet to treat deficient chameleons in tangent with the A drops/shots.
For parasite testing, is this something I can do at home? I’m aware of fecal floats, but anything else? I am a poor college student, and vets are very expensive.

 

[kinyonga]

You said…”For parasite testing, is this something I can do at home? I’m aware of fecal floats, but anything else? I am a poor college student, and vets are very expensive”…I can’t advise you on home testing…I don’t do it myself… but there are people who do their own testing on here. Hoepfully they will chime into this thread.

You said…” I did want to note that this pair was found close together on the same limb, and have seemed tolerant of each other”…the stress is often “invisible”…they hide it and then one day just drop dead in some cases. It’s not worth the risk. In the wild, they have the option to move away from another chameleon if they chose to. In captivity, they are pretty much “trapped” in the same area due to the size of their cages.
It doesn’t work for 2 males together, two females together or one of each when it comes to most chameleons. There are a couple of species that can tolerate others in their area…but you need to be able to know when that’s ok.

I am relatively sure that some, like veileds, can even sense that there is another of their species in the same room with them even though they can’t see each other…and it might be due to their vibrating transmissions…maybe.

 

[Umbra]

You said…”For parasite testing, is this something I can do at home? I’m aware of fecal floats, but anything else? I am a poor college student, and vets are very expensive”…I can’t advise you on home testing…I don’t do it myself… but there are people who do their own testing on here. Hoepfully they will chime into this thread.

You said…” I did want to note that this pair was found close together on the same limb, and have seemed tolerant of each other”…the stress is often “invisible”…they hide it and then one day just drop dead in some cases. It’s not worth the risk. In the wild, they have the option to move away from another chameleon if they chose to. In captivity, they are pretty much “trapped” in the same area due to the size of their cages.
It doesn’t work for 2 males together, two females together or one of each when it comes to most chameleons. There are a couple of species that can tolerate others in their area…but you need to be able to know when that’s ok,

Thank you for your expertise, I am working on keeping them separate still. I'm planning on building a divider to give them each a side of the porch to explore whilst keeping the enclosure cageless. I can't bear to subject them to a life of confinement after they've grown up in freedom. I'm planning on making my enclosure as close as possible to their previous habitat, with a rainfall simulator, trees, creeper vines, and a soil bed with plenty of digging room for the female so she can lay close to her tree as they did in their previous home. After I have finished quarantining the sick male, I'll move the pair to a much larger patio where they'll have double the space to roam. Is there a certain distance that makes them feel less threatened if they can see each other? They'll be 30-40 ft away from each other, which is around the spacing I have observed between chameleons in the wild. The population they are from is extremely dense, humid, and their main prey item is the young Anolis Sagrei that cohabit the canopy with them. Eventually i'll have a breeding setup for anolis to keep the chameleons well-fed with clean natural prey items. The sizes they get from feeding on these guys is insane, larger than any veileds I have ever seen, native or captive.