Bioactive Build

[Dbash44]

I know I am a couple days late on the toxic plant discussion, but FWIW I am of the opinion that the safe plant lists I see floating around are overly conservative for non-foliage eating species. I've seen quite a few plants labeled as toxic that I believe to be harmless. I suspect the lists are derived from keeper experience and maybe ASPCA poison control info derived from dogs and cats. Per my exotic veterinarian faculty members, there really aren't any good resources that have anything approaching a comprehensive evidence-based list of what's toxic to reptiles and what is not, because there isn't really any research into it.

While it is better safe than sorry, you're likely going to be fine using aroid plants with calcium oxalates as their only toxin, and this encompasses a lot of plants you might want to use. Golden pothos is an aroid plant labeled as safe by all lists despite having calcium oxalate crystals (basically a local irritant), but I've seen Alocasia, Philodendron, and Monstera all labeled as toxic despite being from the same family and having the same toxin as pothos. I have used all three without incident. My panther chameleon does not munch on leaves, and I have yet to see a wayward feeder try to take a bite out of one of the aroids, so the odds of getting a contamination are essentially zero before even considering the fact I don't consider these plants to be very toxic (some keepers report their veileds actively eating the leaves without incident).

TLDR - Be smart about your plant selection and don't do anything totally crazy, but remember the lists aren't really based on much. I'd be fairly conservative with a veiled that eats foliage, but with a chameleon that never eats foliage I don't think it makes sense to worry about which ficus or aroid you're going to use. And if anyone is aware of actual plant poisonings of chameleons beyond ficus sap in the eye (which I have heard can be a problem), please shoot me a DM, I would be interested to know.

I agree, the topic is quite controversial. I have seen people say that pathos, satin pathos, ivy and other commonly used plants are toxic and suggest people don't use them for chams. I've used all three, and others for that matter, and have not had any issues that I'm aware of. None of the chams I've given them to eat plants either. However, if I had a plant muncher I would be a lot more cautious of the plants I'd choose. All of my feeders are in runner cups, so I don't have an issue with them eating plants that I've seen. My chams eat there feeders pretty quickly and I don't see any get loose.

I also think that there are many plants in Madagascar, Yemen, South Africa, or wherever that are considered toxic that wild chams live their lives around. That's just a theory I have and I don't have hard evidence. I know we are trying to do one better for our animals in captivity, but again, I don't worry too much about the plant aspect. Of course I'm not going to go overboard with it and use any of the Datura or Solanaceae I have.

I appreciate your input, Connor and will definitely use my own discretion when selecting plants.

 

[The Wild One]

He's just proud of his work. Maybe he's a bit of a showoff, too.

Lol it didn’t show as a video, it just looked like the Cham.

 

[Dbash44]

Anyway, I went and picked up new materials to start this project over I'm hoping that I can finish this one and then fix the first one without having to completely destroy it and start it over.


I changed up some things on this one, though. I'm not including planters made out of the foam for one. They made it tough to incorporate all the plants I wanted. My plan instead of using those is to use fern background panels and coco liner for mounting surfaces for some of the plants. I ended up finding some cork bark pieces that have little niches that I can use as tiny planters. Thought through the tubing for plant drainage this time for the planters I do plan on incorporating.

Definitely not putting a huge branch in the middle of everything this time. I suppose it would look nicer on a larger setup, but with this enclosure being 18" wide, it doesn't made too much sense to me due to the fact it pretty much makes the bottom of the enclosure a dark cave. Only branches will be thinner branches and vines that will allow more light to pass through.

Last picture is a screen shot of a video. I forgot to actually snap a picture before coming into the office today.
Please excuse my mess in some of the pictures

 

[Dbash44]

Almost ready for the silicone. Had to switch out the back piece of cork since the other was way too large and took up half the open enclosure space.

I added the branches prior this time since I didn't feel comfortable poking them in last time. This will be SO much fun to silicone

 

[Ares05]

Looking good!

 

[Dbash44]

Got the once over of substrate finished. No branches were harmed in the doing of this step. haha

 

[The Wild One]

Your making a comeback! Looks good!

 

[Dbash44]

Finally ready to decorate and fill in the bottom. The old one weighs so much idk how I’m going to social distance and move it at the same time haha

 

[Dbash44]

I’m looking at this now and noticing the tree has a beard. ?

 

[BrothaJordan]

About halfway there with the coco husk. I used four tubes of the silicone and ran out. Picked up more and will resume progress once home from the office this evening.

Isnt that smell of silicone just terrible lol.

 

[Futurechameleommom]

Okay, one million questions. Haha. First, holy crap it's AMAZING. Second, why do you do the tubing? Is that cuz you water those plants and don't want the water building up? Do you just spray the foam directly on the glass? Or, do you do it on something else and attach it to the glass?

 

[Dbash44]

Isnt that smell of silicone just terrible lol.

Oh yes I just love it! If I could smell silicone curing every minute of every day my life would be so much better

Okay, one million questions. Haha. First, holy crap it's AMAZING. Second, why do you do the tubing? Is that cuz you water those plants and don't want the water building up? Do you just spray the foam directly on the glass? Or, do you do it on something else and attach it to the glass?

Thank you!

I used the tubing to allow the plants to drain if they get overwatered. This is extremely important so that the plant's roots don't become affected and kill the plant as a result. Have you ever had a plant in standing water for a long period of time and it starts to smell funky? That's usually a sign of root rot.

In the past I've just drilled holes in the foam for the drainage once I have it siliconed, but I wanted to try something different. I feel that drilling into the foam once you've gotten to a certain point is kind of taking a step back. That's just my opinion, though, and I can say that drilling holes is easier so that you don't have to worry about getting the tubing placement correct.

You can just apply the foam to the glass and that's what I did here. I always clean the glass with rubbing alcohol to give the foam a nice clean surface to adhere to. If you get foam in areas on the glass that you don't want, you can use a glass scraper to remove it. This will not scratch the glass if done correctly.

Alternatively, I've also put together a background on a pice of plywood. I then mounted it to the inside of a screen cage with 2x4's used as braces to hold the background in place. This has held up for 6+ months, but if I could go back I would have just omitted the plywood and put the foam directly on the enclosure. The plywood makes the cage very heavy and was a PITA to maneuver. Also, it makes the cage weight unevenly distributed. Yes, this does make it somewhat easy to remove, but I don't think it's worth it in the long run. By doing this method, you're also using up extra inches in the enclosure for the plywood if that makes sense. When working with limited space every inch counts.

I've also seen people use insulation foam or styrofoam cut to size and use it the same way I used the plywood in the previous paragraph. This is useful if your cage is glass because those types of cages are usually very heavy without anything in them. The foam weighs almost nothing and won't add a bunch of weight to it the way plywood would. Again, this seems to me to be an inefficient use of space. There's tons of ways to do this, I would look at some youtube videos by SerpaDesign or Mike Tytula if you are thinking about doing something like this.

 

[Futurechameleommom]

Oh yes I just love it! If I could smell silicone curing every minute of every day my life would be so much better




Thank you!

I used the tubing to allow the plants to drain if they get overwatered. This is extremely important so that the plant's roots don't become affected and kill the plant as a result. Have you ever had a plant in standing water for a long period of time and it starts to smell funky? That's usually a sign of root rot.

In the past I've just drilled holes in the foam for the drainage once I have it siliconed, but I wanted to try something different. I feel that drilling into the foam once you've gotten to a certain point is kind of taking a step back. That's just my opinion, though, and I can say that drilling holes is easier so that you don't have to worry about getting the tubing placement correct.

You can just apply the foam to the glass and that's what I did here. I always clean the glass with rubbing alcohol to give the foam a nice clean surface to adhere to. If you get foam in areas on the glass that you don't want, you can use a glass scraper to remove it. This will not scratch the glass if done correctly.

Alternatively, I've also put together a background on a pice of plywood. I then mounted it to the inside of a screen cage with 2x4's used as braces to hold the background in place. This has held up for 6+ months, but if I could go back I would have just omitted the plywood and put the foam directly on the enclosure. The plywood makes the cage very heavy and was a PITA to maneuver. Also, it makes the cage weight unevenly distributed. Yes, this does make it somewhat easy to remove, but I don't think it's worth it in the long run. By doing this method, you're also using up extra inches in the enclosure for the plywood if that makes sense. When working with limited space every inch counts.

I've also seen people use insulation foam or styrofoam cut to size and use it the same way I used the plywood in the previous paragraph. This is useful if your cage is glass because those types of cages are usually very heavy without anything in them. The foam weighs almost nothing and won't add a bunch of weight to it the way plywood would. Again, this seems to me to be an inefficient use of space. There's tons of ways to do this, I would look at some youtube videos by SerpaDesign or Mike Tytula if you are thinking about doing something like this.

I'm definitely building my own enclosure. I may not go bioactive at first though. Do you think I could still do the wall without going bioactive right now? What I was thinking was to do pine and put screen around it except the back and the bottom. So on the back I would use pine and then on the bottom and sides I would use plexiglass and then caulk and seal it so that it doesn't get on any of the wood. Does that make sense? Do you think that would work?

 

[Dbash44]

I'm definitely building my own enclosure. I may not go bioactive at first though. Do you think I could still do the wall without going bioactive right now? What I was thinking was to do pine and put screen around it except the back and the bottom. So on the back I would use pine and then on the bottom and sides I would use plexiglass and then caulk and seal it so that it doesn't get on any of the wood. Does that make sense? Do you think that would work?

You don't need to go bioactive to have a DIY background. I find them useful for aesthetic as well as a barrier so the wall behind the cage doesn't get misted. I would like to think the wet substrate on the background helps with humidity, too, but I have done tests to confirm this.

I personally would not use pine. Pine is cheap, but also decays easier than other woods when exposed to water. I mean if you seal it properly like it sounds like you are trying to do you might be ok. If I were you, I'd get a better wood, such as a hardwood, from the get go so you don't run into problems in time and have to start over. I forgot to add that the plywood on the background warped after I applied the foam. When I attached it to the cage with screws and 2x4's that helped it flatten out a lot. That's another reason I chose not to use plywood again.

Something you'll want to take into account when building a cage is ventilation. I have used screen cages with all sides covered/solid excluding the service door and top. For my bioactive enclosure I have a computer fan on the top screen to circulate the air. Stagnant air is the enemy.

 

[Futurechameleommom]

You don't need to go bioactive to have a DIY background. I find them useful for aesthetic as well as a barrier so the wall behind the cage doesn't get misted. I would like to think the wet substrate on the background helps with humidity, too, but I have done tests to confirm this.

I personally would not use pine. Pine is cheap, but also decays easier than other woods when exposed to water. I mean if you seal it properly like it sounds like you are trying to do you might be ok. If I were you, I'd get a better wood, such as a hardwood, from the get go so you don't run into problems in time and have to start over. I forgot to add that the plywood on the background warped after I applied the foam. When I attached it to the cage with screws and 2x4's that helped it flatten out a lot. That's another reason I chose not to use plywood again.

Something you'll want to take into account when building a cage is ventilation. I have used screen cages with all sides covered/solid excluding the service door and top. For my bioactive enclosure I have a computer fan on the top screen to circulate the air. Stagnant air is the enemy.

What foam do you think is best? Also I saw a YT video of a guy who didn't use Silicone. He used something I can't remember the name of. I wanna say flex wood

 

[Dbash44]

What foam do you think is best? Also I saw a YT video of a guy who didn't use Silicone. He used something I can't remember the name of. I wanna say flex wood

I've always used Great Stuff Foam and never had an issue with it. I haven't used another foam product to say it is better than the Great Stuff. There's the regular version of Great Stuff, Gaps & Cracks (which is the least expensive, $3-$4), that is yellow and the Pond and Stone (most expensive, $9-$10) that's black. I've used both and like each one for different reasons. The yellow is unsightly and unnatural for a terrarium and needs to be covered in silicone. The black one looks better, IMO, if you don't want to use silicone.

You don't have to use silicone for these if you don't want to. I have an enclosure where the black foam is bare and it works/looks fine. You might find that the way the foam expands doesn't look very nice, though. If I were you, I'd just go the extra mile and use silicone and substrate. If you're building an enclosure you might consider not cutting corners so you're as happy as you can be with the end result. Nothing is worse than cutting corners to save time or money when DIYing only to find you wish you had spent that extra money and time on a previous step. The more time and extra few bucks that go into the little things is very worth it.

For example, I ran into this with my first go on this bioactive glass terrarium. I spent the extra money and time the second time around and am much more satisfied with it compared to the first time. Another example is the enclosure I mentioned with the bare black foam. I purchased another enclosure to keep my cham in so I can pull down his current enclosure with the black foam to cut and apply silicone and substrate to the foam. You can see in both of these examples that I'm going backwards to edit things that I cut corners on.

On another note, I've also seen people use DryLok with cement coloring instead of silicone and substrate/bare foam. Either way, if you plan to silicone or drylok you'll want to shave/cut off the outer layer of the foam. The foam gets a slick outer layer that makes it difficult for these products to stick to. The carved foam is rougher and has air pockets, thus making the silicone or drylok adhere much better. I've applied silicone to both a carved and non-carved surface and find the carved is much better.

Here's the drylok I was speaking about.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/DRYLOK-1-Gal-Gray-Masonry-Waterproofer-27613/100165469?modalType=drawer

Here's a video of someone using the drylok:

 

[Futurechameleommom]

I've always used Great Stuff Foam and never had an issue with it. I haven't used another foam product to say it is better than the Great Stuff. There's the regular version of Great Stuff, Gaps & Cracks (which is the least expensive, $3-$4), that is yellow and the Pond and Stone (most expensive, $9-$10) that's black. I've used both and like each one for different reasons. The yellow is unsightly and unnatural for a terrarium and needs to be covered in silicone. The black one looks better, IMO, if you don't want to use silicone.

You don't have to use silicone for these if you don't want to. I have an enclosure where the black foam is bare and it works/looks fine. You might find that the way the foam expands doesn't look very nice, though. If I were you, I'd just go the extra mile and use silicone and substrate. If you're building an enclosure you might consider not cutting corners so you're as happy as you can be with the end result. Nothing is worse than cutting corners to save time or money when DIYing only to find you wish you had spent that extra money and time on a previous step. The more time and extra few bucks that go into the little things is very worth it.

For example, I ran into this with my first go on this bioactive glass terrarium. I spent the extra money and time the second time around and am much more satisfied with it compared to the first time. Another example is the enclosure I mentioned with the bare black foam. I purchased another enclosure to keep my cham in so I can pull down his current enclosure with the black foam to cut and apply silicone and substrate to the foam. You can see in both of these examples that I'm going backwards to edit things that I cut corners on.

On another note, I've also seen people use DryLok with cement coloring instead of silicone and substrate/bare foam. Either way, if you plan to silicone or drylok you'll want to shave/cut off the outer layer of the foam. The foam gets a slick outer layer that makes it difficult for these products to stick to. The carved foam is rougher and has air pockets, thus making the silicone or drylok adhere much better. I've applied silicone to both a carved and non-carved surface and find the carved is much better.

Here's the drylok I was speaking about.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/DRYLOK-1-Gal-Gray-Masonry-Waterproofer-27613/100165469?modalType=drawer

Here's a video of someone using the drylok:

Yes the dry lock is what I was talking about. I am new to this so if I sound like an idiot I apologize. I have not found any blogs or YouTube's doing what I'm about to do and so it's hard to make sure I'm doing it all right. I've just been piecing it together. In my case I'll be putting the foam on wood. I could maybe do plexiglass but that would probably be a little too expensive for me. I'm gonna put the foam on the wood and then I am gonna carve it and make it how I want it to look. Then I will put maybe dry lock or something on the outside of everything that will change the color of the foam and make sure none of the color peeks through. That's it's purpose, right? Then I'll cover it all with moss or something like it to give it a real feel. What is the substrate that I'm adding to the wall? Am I understanding this all correctly, or am I lost?

 

[Dbash44]

Yes the dry lock is what I was talking about. I am new to this so if I sound like an idiot I apologize. I have not found any blogs or YouTube's doing what I'm about to do and so it's hard to make sure I'm doing it all right. I've just been piecing it together. In my case I'll be putting the foam on wood. I could maybe do plexiglass but that would probably be a little too expensive for me. I'm gonna put the foam on the wood and then I am gonna carve it and make it how I want it to look. Then I will put maybe dry lock or something on the outside of everything that will change the color of the foam and make sure none of the color peeks through. That's it's purpose, right? Then I'll cover it all with moss or something like it to give it a real feel. What is the substrate that I'm adding to the wall? Am I understanding this all correctly, or am I lost?

I don't think you sound like an idiot and don't think you are one. Don't worry! Better to risk sounding idiotic than to have unanswered questions.

I would definitely use the forum search tab and search for enclosure threads. On top of that, I highly HIGHLY suggest looking at SerpaDesign's Youtube. Watch all the different types of builds he does. I've pulled ideas from more than just his vivarium builds. It's nice, too, because you get to see what's going on as it's happening instead of just reading a paragraph or looking at pics.

Yes, you will apply the DryLok to the carved foam. I've never used the DryLok, but would assume it's purpose is going to be similar to silicone - to waterproof and conceal the foam. You don't have to, but if you choose to use substrate or moss make sure it's dry before applying it. Apply it to the wet DryLok and make sure you press it firmly to embedded it properly. If you do plan to use a substrate or moss, I would personally use silicone instead of DryLok. I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure the purpose of the drylok is to omit the substrate step. Again, I've not used DryLok so I can't say for sure.

You don't have to use substrate or moss, it just adds a more natural look than just silicone or just drylok. I like to believe it helps with humidity when it's wet, too. Make sure you use reptile safe mosses and substrate. I use frog moss by zoo med and coco coir for the substrate. There's no fertilizers or dyes in these and they're designed to be reptile safe.

As far as your enclosure goes, you can always use corrugated plastic sheets instead of plexiglass. However, they are not clear in the way plexiglass is. You could also make solid walls with wood, but you need to make sure you seal it like crazy so the wood doesn't soak up water.

Hope my responses are making sense, please let me know if you have any questions. Even if I don't have the answers, I'll do my best to help you out.

 

[Futurechameleommom]

I don't think you sound like an idiot and don't think you are one. Don't worry! Better to risk sounding idiotic than to have unanswered questions.

I would definitely use the forum search tab and search for enclosure threads. On top of that, I highly HIGHLY suggest looking at SerpaDesign's Youtube. Watch all the different types of builds he does. I've pulled ideas from more than just his vivarium builds. It's nice, too, because you get to see what's going on as it's happening instead of just reading a paragraph or looking at pics.

Yes, you will apply the DryLok to the carved foam. I've never used the DryLok, but would assume it's purpose is going to be similar to silicone - to waterproof and conceal the foam. You don't have to, but if you choose to use substrate or moss make sure it's dry before applying it. Apply it to the wet DryLok and make sure you press it firmly to embedded it properly. If you do plan to use a substrate or moss, I would personally use silicone instead of DryLok. I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure the purpose of the drylok is to omit the substrate step. Again, I've not used DryLok so I can't say for sure.

You don't have to use substrate or moss, it just adds a more natural look than just silicone or just drylok. I like to believe it helps with humidity when it's wet, too. Make sure you use reptile safe mosses and substrate. I use frog moss by zoo med and coco coir for the substrate. There's no fertilizers or dyes in these and they're designed to be reptile safe.

As far as your enclosure goes, you can always use corrugated plastic sheets instead of plexiglass. However, they are not clear in the way plexiglass is. You could also make solid walls with wood, but you need to make sure you seal it like crazy so the wood doesn't soak up water.

Hope my responses are making sense, please let me know if you have any questions. Even if I don't have the answers, I'll do my best to help you out.

You're a life saver! I really appreciate you talking with me about this. This is my first reptile, and I want him to have the very best life. So, my other idea is to use plywood on the back, and attach a thin sheet of plexiglass to it or maybe the currugated plastic sheet and then put the foam on so the plywood doesn't warp. I also considered sealing the plywood before putting on the mold to see if maybe it wouldn't warp that way. Did you seal your plywood when you used it?

Now I have another question for you. I am going to make this enclosure 2 feet deep, 4 feet wide, and 6 feet tall. First, do you think the width is too wide if I later decide to go bioactive? I am building the enclosure so that in the future I can be bioactive (idk if that's the word) but the the issue is this. Everyone tells me don't go bioactive at first because I should get my husbandry good first. The problem is if I decide to go bioactive later (because I for sure want to, I like the look and feel of it better) then I'll have to find a whole new enclosure for Pablo and that means I have to build one or buy a smaller one. Either of those options stink, but I can't have everything in there until I go through one cycle first, right? So then that makes me think it makes the most sense to do it to start, but again, everyone tells me not to. I'm sooooo conflicted.

 

[BrothaJordan]

Something you'll want to take into account when building a cage is ventilation. I have used screen cages with all sides covered/solid excluding the service door and top. For my bioactive enclosure I have a computer fan on the top screen to circulate the air. Stagnant air is the enemy.

Could you post a pic on how you set up that fan??