Bloated stomach and neck area?

[TayS]

Please Help! Bloated stomach and neck area on graceful cham!

Hello everyone,

I currently live in San Diego California. As of a few weeks ago I am a new chameleon owner. I recently purchased this beautiful graceful chameleon at a pet store and he seemed to be in excellent shape. I made sure to check for signs of dehydration, broken bones, worms etc.
A few days ago I noticed he had not pooed in over several days so I assumed he was constipated/impacted. I also noticed a small bump around his neck area. I stopped feeding him, increased his water intake and even gave him two crickets dipped in mineral oil because from what I have read people have had success with using this oil to relief impaction/constipation. I also gave him a 15 minute bath in warm water. When I arrived home from work this evening
his entire body was bloated along with his neck. Attached is the best picture I could retrieve as he is sleeping.

Details:
-Graceful chameleon/male
-5-6 months old
-Only eats small crickets about 10 a day
-I feed the crickets bits of fresh apple, dandelion greens, chard, and kale.
-Have only supplemented him during one feeding since I purchased him
-Supplement calcium powder with D3
-Screen cage 16x16x30
-Live plant as well as artificial vines
-NO substrate in enclosure
-Reptisun 5.0 uvb Reptisun 40w basking bulb
-Temperature in cage 68 degrees at the lowest 82 degrees at the highest
-Humidity unknown but i do have a cool mist humidifier running throughout the day as well as drip sessions at least 3 times a day
-He is still interested in eating and drinking but a bit lethargic
-The few times he has pooed it has been dark brown and his urates were about 50% white 50% orange
-I have handled him about 3 times for about 15-30 minutes each time.

Any feedback would greatly be appreciated

 

[carol5208]

Chameleons do not have to go to the bathroom everyday, so I don't see cause for alarm if it has only been a couple of days. Putting him in a bath of warm water was probably very stressful for him and unnecessary. Who advised you to do so? If he does not poop soon, try misting him directly with warm water. It will be much less stressful than holding him in water. The bump/swelling around the neck area looks to be a condition called gular edema. It is a build up of fluid in the tissues. It may come and go in severity. It is thought to be from some type of imbalance possibly caused by over supplementation. In your care though, you said you only used calcium one time in the weeks you have had him? Why is this??? Are you positive you have a male?? How do you know?

 

[TayS]

Hi Carol,

No one advised me to put him in a warm bath and I certainly did not hold him down in the water. I have been doing a lot of research on this website and assumed he was constipated/impacted at first because he has not pooed in about a week and a half.

In terms of the supplementation I read that a dose of a multivitamin/calcium powder with D3 should only be administered once or twice a month. I recently found out I am suppose to be giving him a multivitamin without D3 almost everyday but I have not fed him anything in the past couple of days because he has not pooed.

In terms of the sex, he has spurs on the back of his feet and as you can see in the picture he also has the bright orange coloring in between the skin near the neck which is a common trait of male graceful chameleons.

Gular Edema was something I can across in my research but as I stated before I have only supplemented him once since he has been in my possession. Is it possible for him to have developed Gular Edema that easily?

 

[carol5208]

Hi Carol,

No one advised me to put him in a warm bath and I certainly did not hold him down in the water. I have been doing a lot of research on this website and assumed he was constipated/impacted at first because he has not pooed in about a week and a half.

In terms of the supplementation I read that a dose of a multivitamin/calcium powder with D3 should only be administered once or twice a month. I recently found out I am suppose to be giving him a multivitamin without D3 almost everyday but I have not fed him anything in the past couple of days because he has not pooed.

In terms of the sex, he has spurs on the back of his feet and as you can see in the picture he also has the bright orange coloring in between the skin near the neck which is a common trait of male graceful chameleons.

Gular Edema was something I can across in my research but as I stated before I have only supplemented him once since he has been in my possession. Is it possible for him to have developed Gular Edema that easily?

You stated several days he had not gone, not a week and a half so that is a different story. Yes, on the d3, a couple of times a month so ok on that, it was just that you said that was all the supplements you had given in the weeks you had him and that would be wrong to not give more calcium. Ok on the spurs as being male. The reason I asked is because I have seen on here when females get eggs or it might be after they lay, but for whatever reason they sometimes get edema and was just ruling that out. As far as the edema, no one really knows why chameleons get it. Not even a vet can tell you for sure. It is really a guess and therefore there is no quick cure for it. I know first hand as I have a chameleon that has it. The previous owner I got him from said he did not supplement much at all so that rules out the over supplementation on my chameleon. I just know in the 20 months in my care since I got him, it comes and goes but never has gone away for good. I try different things to ease it up but nothing seems to work and sometimes it just goes away on its own but it is still there just slightly. Other days it is horrible and I do not know why. And your last question about getting it that easily, I cannot answer that as I have no idea how it develops! As far as the bath, like I said I would try misting directly with warm water, even if he runs away. I can usually get mine to go this way. Have you tried getting him out in the sun? I know you live in Cali? Is it warm out now?

 

[TayS]

I have not tried putting him in the sun yet. The sun is always shining here in Southern California but the temperature outside has been quite windy/chilly (about 55-60 degrees) so I wasn't sure if it would do any good. Should I try even with these cool temps?

Also, I will mist him with warm water tomorrow morning and see what happens.

 

[ridgebax1]

I am by no means an expert, but my chameleon developed gular edema in conjunction with MBD. I came to learn that my supplementation was inadequate and inappropriate. I used Calcium with D3 with every feeding rather than plain calcium and I only used a vitamin powder monthly or less. Is it possible that he was supplemented inappropriately at the pet store. They are notorious for poor care for their reptiles.
There is a new sticky I think in the health section devoted to poo! It can tell you everything you ever wanted to know about the subject. You state the urates are 50/50 white and orange. Orange urate is an indication of dehydration in chameleons. However in the sticky it says some orange may be seen chams that don't poo very often as they reabsorb water more efficiently than we do. If you want to increase his moisture I would mist more frequently or put him in the shower. The method I have seen is to put a large plant in the shower and direct the water spray against the wall. It will bounce off the wall and onto the cham. Perhaps upping his water will help with the constipation too. Also hornworms and silkworns are a good way to get some fluid into a cham. They are available online from some of the sponsors of the forums. You can find them by clicking on the link at the top right of the page.

 

[carol5208]

I am by no means an expert, but my chameleon developed gular edema in conjunction with MBD. I came to learn that my supplementation was inadequate and inappropriate. I used Calcium with D3 with every feeding rather than plain calcium and I only used a vitamin powder monthly or less. Is it possible that he was supplemented inappropriately at the pet store. They are notorious for poor care for their reptiles.
There is a new sticky I think in the health section devoted to poo! It can tell you everything you ever wanted to know about the subject. You state the urates are 50/50 white and orange. Orange urate is an indication of dehydration in chameleons. However in the sticky it says some orange may be seen chams that don't poo very often as they reabsorb water more efficiently than we do. If you want to increase his moisture I would mist more frequently or put him in the shower. The method I have seen is to put a large plant in the shower and direct the water spray against the wall. It will bounce off the wall and onto the cham. Perhaps upping his water will help with the constipation too. Also hornworms and silkworns are a good way to get some fluid into a cham. They are available online from some of the sponsors of the forums. You can find them by clicking on the link at the top right of the page.

I have never heard of the theory of edema being caused by under supplementation, more on the lines of over supplementation but who knows at this point because like I said no one, including the vets can give you a exact answer on what causes it. I also have no heard of MBD being in conjunction with edema. I don't think I have ever seen a chameleon on here with MBD that also has edema. Can you explain?

 

[ridgebax1]

I have never heard of the theory of edema being caused by under supplementation, more on the lines of over supplementation but who knows at this point because like I said no one, including the vets can give you a exact answer on what causes it. I also have no heard of MBD being in conjunction with edema. I don't think I have ever seen a chameleon on here with MBD that also has edema. Can you explain?

I did not say anything about under supplementation but inappropriate supplementation. My chameleon got calcium WITH D3 with every feeding so he had too much Vit D and in the last few weeks of his life could not walk correctly, he grabbed his front legs with his back feet and would fall off of his branches. When this first happened, I thought the fall had injured his back and caused the grabbing of his front legs. He clearly hurt his back as it was painful to touch and he had also developed gular edema. My understanding is this is often present as a symptom of some type of disease or disease process and as you said its cause is generally unknown.

When Pete fell and was showing this problem with his feet, I joined the forums and searched and searched for this symptom and found very little info on it at the time. I find it odd that I could not successfully find information on this because now I find it all the time! I was pretty upset at the time and may not have been looking effectively. Since his death, and as I have continued to explore the forums I have found several threads describing chameleons with this problem whose owners have been told this is a symptom of MBD. So I think that due to the inappropriate calcium supplement being used, along with inadequate vitamin supplementation, Pete developed MBD and subsequently developed the problem with his legs/feet which caused him to fall from his perch. He did injure his back and developed gular edema. All of this was too much for him to recover from and he succumbed to his problems after about 2 or so weeks.

I have attached a couple of pictures.

 

[carol5208]

Oh ok. You had said inadequate(which to me means not enough) supplementation also and that was the way I commented like I did. Anyways, your chameleon that passed away, his chest area looks like my chameleons. I call them man boobs.lol There are quite a few members whose chameleons have gotten gular edema and no one really knows why. It is strange when people have multiple chameleons and they are all cared for the same way and one gets edema. Why is this? I have not seen anyone answer this question yet! I guess it is the way the chameleon processes vitamins, nutrients, supplements....who knows! I am not sure if MBD and edema are related though, and your boy just happened to have developed both. amazingly enough, my chameleon has been living with his edema for many, many years now.

 

[TayS]

Hello Ridgebax1,

Thanks for your feed back. It is entirely possible that he was not fed adequate supplements during his stay at the pet store. I really do not believe that he is suffering from Gular Edema though. From the pictures that I have seen with affected chameleons they seem to have uneven lumps in the neck area from the edema. My chameleons entire body is evenly swollen as well as his neck. While watching him I noticed he keeps making the swallowing motion even though I have not fed him or misted him and then stretches his neck up and out while is mouth opened. Could he possibly have a cricket lodged in his throat? I also believe he may be impacted since as i have mentioned above that he has not pooed in over a week and a half as of today.

 

[carol5208]

It doesn't have to be bumps to gular edema, it can be swelling. I don't know of the whole body swelling what that might be. If it was a female, then possibly gravid. The symptoms you are describing now sound like a respiratory infection.

 

[ridgebax1]

I had thought that perhaps with the overdosing of Vitamin D3 he may have developed some kidney function problem toward the end of his life that resulted in the edema. I am sorry your cham is experiencing the distress that he is. I agree with Carol5208 that it may be a respiratory problem. I think that a vet trip would be in order.

I thought I read somewhere, possibly here, that baby food pears or mashed up pears can help with constipation. But I am not sure where I read it. I would increase fluids for your guy, it is possible that even though he has generalized edema, he could be dehydrated because the fluid is in his tissues rather than his gut, thus unavailable for his kidneys.

Either way I would take him to a qualified reptile vet. It is funny (odd not ha-ha) so much of reptile care is common across the whole group, like the need for UVB and calcium, but each has its own specific requirements.

 

[TayS]

The swelling has gone down as of this morning. He only has the bump under his neck now. I have misted him with warm water for about 15 minutes and still no poo. I have scheduled a vet appointment next week. He has no other signs of a respiratory infection besides the neck movement but we will see what the vet has to say. Thank you both for your feedback. I will keep updating with new information so that maybe this thread can help others in the future.

 

[carol5208]

The swelling has gone down as of this morning. He only has the bump under his neck now. I have misted him with warm water for about 15 minutes and still no poo. I have scheduled a vet appointment next week. He has no other signs of a respiratory infection besides the neck movement but we will see what the vet has to say. Thank you both for your feedback. I will keep updating with new information so that maybe this thread can help others in the future.

ok then. You said he was stretching his neck upward and opening his mouth which could be a sign of a RI. It might not be, but it would be a good idea to have a qualified vet check his mouth out.

 

[ataraxia]

I have never heard of the theory of edema being caused by under supplementation, more on the lines of over supplementation but who knows at this point because like I said no one, including the vets can give you a exact answer on what causes it.

Under supplementing, using little to no calcium can cause it.

From my best guess. The picture displays an animal with an infection. You will need to take that chameleon to a vet.

 

[carol5208]

Under supplementing, using little to no calcium can cause it.

From my best guess. The picture displays an animal with an infection. You will need to take that chameleon to a vet.

Does anyone really know for sure when it all comes down to it? I just never heard of that. It has always been over supplementation. I have given up on Lenny's. It is here to stay...I have tried everything, from no supplementation, moderate supplementation, etc. Vet says, water, water, water, sunshine but nothing helps. Anyways, how do you think using no calcium could cause fluid build up?

 

[ataraxia]

Just in the gular area. Im not sure if you remember the thread made by the member juice28 (i think that is his name)? He thought his baby panthers edema was a water issue and then everyone jumped in saying it was probable hypervitaminosis. The fact was that he was not dusting his babies with calcium and once he started dusting it went away. Now this was for a baby panther and it was caught early on. With adults it is much, much harder to get rid of and to be honest once it has presented itself it will be hard to keep it away. The main things are to try and stay away from the "thought" of causes which are generally linked to harming the kidneys or liver. With our adults, it takes much more and usually subjected to the the issue causing the problem for a much longer time. Damage is done. With adults feed less and it will go away but it will not cure it.

What the issue is with not dusting correctly is that the phosphorus level become higher than calcium within the body. This is why it is important to dust plain phos free calcium regularly. Most bugs on the gut load we provide have a poor Ca/Phos ration and it needs to be corrected.

 

[kinyonga]

TayS said..."While watching him I noticed he keeps making the swallowing motion even though I have not fed him or misted him and then stretches his neck up and out while is mouth opened."...it bothers me that he is doing his....but I can't tell you what's wrong guy with him.

 

[TayS]

"Under supplementing, using little to no calcium can cause it.

From my best guess. The picture displays an animal with an infection. You will need to take that chameleon to a vet."

This does make sense because I have not been giving him the proper amount of calcium. I purchased some pure calcium today with no vit d3 or phosphorus.

What sort of infection are you implying?

 

[ataraxia]

Im just making a guess on the animals appearance. It could be a RI or even a infection in the mouth that has progressed (not mouth rot).

It is very important in any instance to provide proper calcium and UVB exposure to chameleons. Calcium plays a HUGE role in reptiles.