Bradypodion thamnobates

[eisentrauti]

That's much cheaper than we have here yet.

I apologize, but I'm not understanding all of what you are saying. I think I am missing some bit of information.

If you are referring to my original comment about possibly the gene pool being to small up to this point- I guess I should have been more clear that I was addressing a comment I got in a PM from someone who was speculating that might be the problem. I was guessing others probably felt the same way. Notice that as soon as I wrote that, I hurried to add that I believed that husbandry weakness (or ignorance really) was probably to blame.

Of course the genpool is limited if the animals are breed in captivity for several generations and most of the animals are breed by a handfull of people, but I don't see anything problematic with chameleons when it comes to this topic. Weak chameleons die usually long before adulthood and won't reproduce. This might work with calyptratus but no other chameleons. I see this as a problem when it comes to the excessive color morph breeding but not with chameleons

As for WC as CB- I immediately cleared that up with the comment that only CB have been available for decades.

If your anger is aimed at me, please understand this thread is evidence of my opinion which it sounds like is in agreement with yours- that somehow we in the USA have been failing in our husbandry of this species, and that the overall failure is ours. That is why I am trying to dig for answers- I don't want to add my soon to arrive chameleons to the list of failed attempts over the past several years. I've waited 20 years for these- I really really want to succeed.

The anger is not pointed towards you, but the guy who claimed this thing. It's not the first time that I read sth similar here on the forums. It's easy to say that the animals were weak or misslabled or whatever, but why do the reproduce in a climate which isn't as favorable as what many regions of the US can offer ?

It is an interesting paradox that what little info I've found on them always claims that these are very easy- in the early 90s they were said to be easier than veileds by some, yet in the USA we have failed miserably overall with this species, with only occasional exceptions.

If your anger is aimed at the current group coming in, I was worried also when I learned these were coming out of South Africa, and almost backed out. But after a phone call from steve and an e-mail from the breeder in South Africa, I feel confident these are legit CB individuals. They have the proper paperwork for CITES, etc. Steve would be able to explain better situation that has been set up.

I'm quite sure that thamnobates and other species of this genus can be kept in some states of the US year-round outdoors, some of them should be even able to establish alien colonies but that's another topic. And keeping them outside is the best thing you can do - not even the most advanced gear can simulate this.

I don't know what went wrong with the latest exports, but one problem is always the idea of creating some sort of breeding project with a single pair. This simply won't work with chameleons. If sb wants to breed a chameleon species seriously 3 pairs are a minimum in my opinion and more are always better. I know personally that this is not always an option, sometimes because space is missing and in most cases because of financial reasons, but the "breeding project" threads here are in most cases nearly ridiculous. Chameleons are still the most difficult to keep and breed reptile family, with big advance. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that anything beside calyptratus is breed since decades without fresh blood imports. Even the so called beginner species pardalis needs those regular imports. I know many many "breeders" of this species who claim to breed their lines for generations but are the first to acquire animals when imports come in.

How low are your winter nights and day temperatures? Do you reduce hours of daylight also?

Daytime temps in the round are round 16-22°C and night temps under 10°C. I use HQI spotlights with 35W which are bright but don't produce much heat. At the moment the lights go on at 6am so that I can look for the animals before work and go out at 5pm.

 

[fluxlizard]

Cool. Thank you so much for your information.

3 pair is what I was able to purchase, so you made me feel good about that as well- I am hoping to add more over time, but 3 pair is what I could afford at this time.

Are you keeping them in pairs, groups or individually?

Do you feel I'll need to get them below 10 to get them dormant? The location where I brumate my other temperate lizards all winter remains 10-15 most of the time, if they need cooler than that to get their metabolism down, I'm going to have to build something for them.

 

[laurie]

If it will help, I was part of the prior import. The problems a lot of us had was related to the health of the chams when they arrived into our hands. This was not a reflection on the breeder, rather a reflection on the total lack of care they recieved from the person doing the import. It says something that he had the only "healthy" chams. I can send you a list of those of us who recieved them. We all compared notes as we worked with them. But it is hard with a Cham that small, when the importer did not even offer them water before stuffing them in another box and shipping them to us. He only held on to them as I tossed a fit about them going is the mail the day he got them. I had no idea he would not hydrated and properly care for them. The importer was a guy with no import experience, and had no facilities or expectations, that he was expected to do anything for the chams when he got them.

I will provide you with the name and contact info for the person who had the best luck with them.

I will answer any questions I can as I do still have all my notes.

 

[ataraxia]

Of course the genpool is limited if the animals are breed in captivity for several generations and most of the animals are breed by a handfull of people, but I don't see anything problematic with chameleons when it comes to this topic. Weak chameleons die usually long before adulthood and won't reproduce. This might work with calyptratus but no other chameleons. I see this as a problem when it comes to the excessive color morph breeding but not with chameleons

If you dont mind me asking. What are your experiences with interbreeding? How many generations have you successfully bred into with no ill affects?

With most animals, long term interbreeding has genetic consequences that weaken/defect/deform life.

 

[wdjames00]

Yeah, no I don't think so. I hate to be a downer, but these were protected now for decades. Virtually all available have been captive bred only.

But maybe the gene pool has been too small as they have been virtually unavailable as wild caught, so inbreeding *might* have been the problem.

These coming in are unrelated to current gene pool, so maybe they will be stronger. I suspect though, that husbandry misunderstanding may be as much to blame as genetic weakness in the past.

Which is why I'm digging for clues. Unfortunately, for whatever reason (probably embarrassment at failing) nobody is sharing experience. Which is a shame- we can all learn from failure as well as success.

If everything seemed right with husbandry, there should be no embarrassment. But maybe they just need a little different husbandry than the standard chameleon thing. Strong winter seasonal change not given is probably the culptrit would be my guess, as this is kind of a foreign concept for most chameleon breeders unless they have worked with parsons, but nobody is giving additional data to confirm or disprove my guess.

So I guess my thamnobates are going to have to be something of an experiment. Which is a bit of a shame. I feel like I'm re-inventing the wheel in some ways.

I plan to confirm mine have good body weight, ensure they are well hydrated, and then begin cycling for dormancy almost immediately, have them down completely by Jan 1 and keep them asleep the remainder of the winter until very early spring (probably late march or early april) when they can be taken outdoors here. I guess with lack of additional information, I'll give them a light spritzing on warmish days when they become active so they can hydrate, and then watch for dehydration the rest of the time carefully.

Kind of an anticlimactic start after waiting 20 years for them, what with them just sleeping away the first few months, but hoping I am doing something a little different than others have tried the past several years and what should have been done in the past. I would try a pair in a cold sunroom or basement like the germans seem to be doing for overwintering, with temps at night in the 40s and 50s and lights reduced to 8-10 hours per day, and day temps reduced a bit, but I do not have such accommodations at the moment, so I'll do what langerwerf and the gentleman who did the writeup in the last chameleon news and go full on brumation 24/7 as I do have a cold floor area that keeps my boxes in the 50s where I hibernate other temperate lizards on. If it doesn't go so well, I'll put up a wall in my lizard building and make a cold room and try the german thing the remainder of the winter. I had a cold room there once, but didn't replace it during the rebuild.

I keep thinking keeping and breeding these outdoors year round would be as easy as falling off a log in the right part of California. But I'm on the opposite side of the country, so no luck for me on that.

We should keep in touch and compare notes along the way. Which morph are you getting?

Years later I finally see this ha ha. Clearly I suck at using the resources available. The pair I have are the Fern Hill locale. Awesome animals, they're doing very well. I tinkered with the temps to produce offspring but to no luck. Im scratching my head with these guys. Hows your group doing? They've been pretty seamless to care for as well. What has your experience been? shoot me an email if you'd like. [email protected]

 

[markpulawski]

I keep my pair of Nottingham Rd in a large terrarium, 24" x 20" x 36" with a decent sized vent (where I put the UV lighting), the biggest mistake I made is raising them together, not stress related mind you but breeding too early and young. My pair produced 5 babies that just hit the 2 month old mark and they seem to be doing well. I have over the last month or 2 put them outside quite a bit on trees to soak up real sun and enjoy the air and I echo the above comments about nothing would e better than to keep them outside but in summer here we are far too hot and rainy.
I hope to see others producing as unrelated offspring would be wonderful to put together. A friend of mine got 2 babies out of his Moi River pair but ants got in and killed them and they have not produced any since, he keeps his the same as I keep mine.