Breeding Ethics

[italian chameleon]

A guy from eastern europe told me that some breeders in his country ( sorry don't remember exactly which one was it ) used to "pump" veiled females with loads of food and supplements to breed them as young as possible and produce larger clutches . obviously most of these females don't live more than a couple of years usually laying more than four clutches in the meantime. for any female that dies earlier in the process, there are many more ready for the same purpose. these are the breeders that sell baby veileds dirt cheap at every show in europe, "killing" local small breeders. can these be classified as "calyptratus mills" ?

 

[kplatvoet]

Wow if you look in this thread there is probably over a hundred years of chameleon experience- makes my concerns and worries seem pretty small and stupid- I'm sorry if anyone took offence with the dog analogy - I certainly don't think that just because someone makes money running a good reputable operation that it constitutes a mill- I believe the opposite. I love this forum - the discussions may get heated but there is still a lot of respect -even if it doesn't show up in every post.

 

[Chameleon Company]

A guy from eastern europe told me that some breeders in his country ( sorry don't remember exactly which one was it ) used to "pump" veiled females with loads of food and supplements to breed them as young as possible and produce larger clutches . obviously most of these females don't live more than a couple of years usually laying more than four clutches in the meantime. for any female that dies earlier in the process, there are many more ready for the same purpose. these are the breeders that sell baby veileds dirt cheap at every show in europe, "killing" local small breeders. can these be classified as "calyptratus mills" ?

You are relaying second-hand information, and then using such to castigate businesses that you have no direct knowledge of.

Let me point out again something that I already pointed out. You cannot cut corners with producing chameleons and expect to be successful. It is that simple ! The most difficult part of chameleon husbandry is successful reproduction. This cannot be short-cutted without REDUCING yields.

Further, it is our extensive experience that female chameleons mature more quickly in the wild than in most indoor captive set-ups, point being that folks expectations of the rate of maturity in female chameleons is not based on how Mother Nature does it. We have written of this on many occasions. For instance, in the summertime here in Florida, a female pardalis can grow to full sexual maturity in 5 months. No gimmicks. Just real sunshine, warm temps, and proper nutrition. Such growth rates are much more difficult to achieve indoors under artificial lighting, where maturity can take 8 months of more to achieve.

In all honesty, to even suggest that there is a means and logic in jeopardizing one's females, in the belief that there is some better breeding and production gain to be had. is folly. Your females, and their absolute health, is the key to all successful breeding.

I would suggest that the best breeders know how to raise and maintain the best females ...........

 

[Chameleon Company]

Jim it is pretty obvious you are always right and your word has to be the final say.

If you think it is acceptable to be selling babies at such a young age and putting no value on them then that's your opinion. It is not mine.

I know you are a great breeder who respects the animals you produce. You have helped many people in this hobby. Right or wrong I don't agree with you on this topic.

Carl

Carl,
I can understand one not thinking it proper to ship neonate chameleons at 2g's. Whether in the belief that they are too fragile, or that they will be more difficult for the buyer to maintain, are worthy points. However, many folks do it. One need only go to such as KS, or I presume even the Classifieds here, and see folks selling 3" chameleons. I would remind all that chameleons are on their own from day-1 in the wild, such that if provided the proper food and husbandry, they need no special care otherwise.

Where we differ is that I do not think that such makes a "mill". The word mill absolutely implies abuse in exchange for profit, and is well documented and easy to understand with such as puppies.

But when done properly, small chameleons can be shipped and maintained without suffering. It is also in the best interests of all those who engage in this to do it well, as chameleons are much more unforgiving than puppies, and will demise quickly.

Lastly, if one goes looking for where the documented complaints are within the business, such as over at Fauna, you will see that they are not with the larger producers. They are with the small producers, and such as middle-men, who are selling animals which they did not produce, but which they've had for some time trying to unload. The big producers have very good husbandry, almost to a fault, because chameleons are most demanding when reproducing. It is that simple.

Good luck with all.

 

[nick barta]

This thread and others similar I always find interesting because as someone who is interested in developing programs for lizards in general that involve self sustaining terrarium populations these are issues I have to wrestle with to my own satisfaction- because self sustaining populations result in a fairly significant amount of offspring. Not sure yet if it can be done with chameleons- Jim says no and has a lot of experience behind his opinion...

I don't have a lot of easy answers, but I do have a little food for thought maybe that is worth consideration-

First- I think defining what constitutes a "mill" would be a useful. When I think of a "mill" immediate comparisons with "puppy mills" spring to mind. I don't think these comparisons are valid when it comes to care of the offspring because the well being of the lizard depends almost entirely on the environment of the terrarium and the diet it is fed. Puppies on the other hand, need social and mental stimulation and lots of room for their activity level. Caring properly for 1000 puppies would be worlds apart from caring properly for 1000 baby chameleons. Keep the chameleons in appropriate caging, keep them clean and in small groups, good lighting and water, and drop food in and they are going to be healthy and happy. Do the same with dogs and you end up with emotional and mental issues...

Second- I do think that there is some validity to the issues of genetic ethics as a comparison to puppy mills. Unfortunately I think the reptile community as a whole tends to be a little short sighted when it comes to some of those issues- small scale breeders tend to use "pets" selected from only a few animals from limited genetic background (meaning go to a show or store, pic from several siblings for one breeder, maybe even for both breeders) as breeders. Large scale breeders tend to select from more animals but end up selecting for traits like color over body size and proportion and general vigour.

Third- the ethics of who to sell to.

Big one and the one that started the thread really-

A story to consider-

A few years ago I produced one of the uncommonly produced clutches of mellers chameleons. True captive bred from parents that actually bred in my terraria- not just captive hatched. I took a great deal of time and care raising the babies and sold them mostly to members of the forums when they were really well started (can't remember- 4 or 5 months old). This species is special to me and I really wanted to make sure these went to good homes that were serious about providing for them. Hopefully permanent situations. I set the price pretty high to try and weed out some of the less serious. I felt really good about who bought them- a number went to pretty vocal forum participants at that time. What happened was over the next 18-24 months many of these lizards were resold/rehomed. And these were from some of the more experienced forum members.

Just a few weeks ago in fact I was contacted about another one of these as it had been recently rehomed and had experienced some poor husbandry conditions prior to the transfer, again at the hands of a forum member who was vocal and respected at the original time of sale.

Also- I've had the opportunity to see a number of private collections, some from some pretty well respected and even published and well educated members of the reptile community. I can tell you for certain that these things do not always equal a well cared for collection. Likewise I've seen many novices setups that were excellent.

I guess my thought is this- you can't tell as a seller what will happen to your animals once they are no longer your property. You can try and screen, etc, but that does not in my experience, equal an understanding of how your animals will be cared for once they change hands, even if they are going to a famous reptile author or veterinarian or breeder, and even if they go to a good home that you have found, odds are pretty high that they are going to be resold even if they are something rare and wonderful and in excellent health, and when they are resold you will have no control over the situation they go into.

The other thing I think about as well is that at the end of the day, these *are* lizards. Not dogs. Not little humans in funny costumes. They are experiencing the world from the mind of a lizard with the limited mental complexity of a lizard. There are fish that experience the world on the same complexity level. Chickens probably experience the world on a more complex level. Pigs certainly do. The mice many feed their snakes, are likely experiencing the world on a more complex level than most species of chameleon.

To illustrate- as a teen I had an oscar fish that would rush to the front of his aquarium when I approached and would leap from the water to take pellets from my fingers (in spite of a few missed tank landings!). A chameleon that shows more mental ability than that fish, is probably pretty rare. I once had some fish that cared for their eggs. That is possibly more complex than any chameleon behavior I have witnessed. Certainly a chameleon's experience of the world is closer to the complexity of the fish, than it is to the dog or human experience.

So the point- where is the line drawn? Do we become indignant about "fish mills?" Why not when some fish show similar complexity as our chameleons- simply because they lack legs? Do we refuse to eat commercially grown chickens? Where is the line drawn? At our roach mill tubs?

Now before someone takes that the wrong way- I've shed tears and stayed up nights and been sick with worry and grieved and stressed and sacrificed and all the rest for the animals- but at the end of the day- I do sometimes wonder if many forum members have led extremely soft and sheltered lives that put them apart from the natural world by some of the things they post. Most are eating animals every day that were more conscious of their existence and death and who experienced a much more mentally and emotionally complex reality compared to their chameleons.

That's not to say that we should not give the best possible care for our lizards- I strongly believe we should offer a high quality of life, and that we should respect and nurture the life we choose to make our private property (and all life generally). And I've definitely mourned lizard pets and all the rest, as I said. So maybe my rational and emotional minds disagree a little on this final point.

So form your own answers- but at least consider things from all the viewpoints your own complex reality can imagine.

For me, I feel comfortable making sure I give my breeding stock the best care I can, and giving my offspring that high level care. I try to be picky over the long haul about who is kept back for breeding each generation and consider vigor over color.

I feel comfortable with the idea that my responsibility as a breeder is to educate and answer questions and tech support for my offspring and to share my experience in places like these forums if I feel it can benefit someone and their animal. As a breeder I want my animals to be in a healthy and happy home - it is the best for the lizard, and also for the owner. I also generally want that for all terrarium lizards- I feel a responsibility to promote good husbandry because I am encouraging lizard husbandry generally.

Along with that is my strong belief that the buyer of an animal needs to be responsible as well, and to educate themselves by asking their breeder questions, reading books and magazine articles and getting info from the internet, etc. If someone buys from me I make it easy by helping them along the way, but even if they buy one from a pet shop- in the end it is their responsibility to educate themselves.

Lastly- someone mentioned something about larger breeders lowering the price of animals. It's kind of funny, but I've always sort of thought the opposite was true- bedroom breeders who 1) could not afford to keep offspring around for long and 2)did not care about or need or understand if they really were making a profit or not were the ones responsible for lowering the prices of terrarium bred lizards. In addition I always figured they were most responsible for genetic weakening of breeding stock because they often bought a single pair on a single day, often from a single set of parents, to use as breeding stock often for a single generation, without thought of future or past generations.

But I guess the truth is the price problem is more spread and larger breeders, small ones, distributors, retailers and even consumers who keep shopping low price are all responsible.

You think at levels that make my mind cramp up…Well said!

Nick

 

[shea]

Ok so go look at the second ad on KS now. 100 lots of veilds for $18. A whopping 3-4 weeks old. Breeding for 10 years.

This is supposedly an experienced breeder. Even states almost zero mortality. Sorted by weight.

What would you consider this operation?

Carl

Have you ever bred veileds? This post shows your lack of experience, and insinuates your own personal utopian view of how you think chameleons should be bred and sold, without having any practical knowledge of how productive and hardy veileds are.

Shea Peterson

 

[CarlC]

Have you ever bred veileds? This post shows your lack of experience, and insinuates your own personal utopian view of how you think chameleons should be bred and sold, without having any practical knowledge of how productive and hardy veileds are.

Shea Peterson

Yes I bred veilds. It has probably been about 18 years or so and they were just as productive then. Add to that the 25+ other species I have bred.

Anything else you want to spout about?

Carl

 

[shea]

Yes I bred veilds. It has probably been about 18 years or so and they were just as productive then. Add to that the 25+ other species I have bred.

Anything else you want to spout about?

Carl

Great, so they you know that producing a couple hundred baby veileds can be done in your basement and in your backyard. You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth, questioning the ks.com while saying you remember how productive and successful they were for you back in the day.

Your post seems to question 1) the experience of the breeder 2) the mortality rate and 3) the age veileds should be sold at. You just don't generally agree with this business whatsoever and question the validity of their ks classified ad.

Breeding veileds has been completed dialed in, and that's why you see wholesale prices so low, b/c of this breeding success, and these breeders supplies hobbyists with a much needed, hardy, c.b. chameleon. That rubs you the wrong way apparently. Remember the days before c.b. veildeds? Wild caught chameleons on deaths doorstep. Of course you do, you've bred 25 wild caught species, and you know how instrumental those c.b. veileds were to the hobby and dialing in husbandry techniques for all species.

Is there a phantom clip level that's ok with you? Is it # produced and also price? $18 bucks a baby drive you crazy, along with the hundreds or thousands of 3 week old babies sold to pet stores?

Shea Peterson

 

[Olimpia]

Hey now, this thread is getting unnecessarily negative. We can discuss breeding ethics without spitting in each other's faces, please?

 

[shea]

Hey now, this thread is getting unnecessarily negative. We can discuss breeding ethics without spitting in each other's faces, please?

Fair. My personal opinion is that a great number of panther & veiled chameleons can be produced, and housed, and cared for without the abuse, neglect,etc. as compared to a puppy mill. People who breed these chameleons in great number are caring for these animals, as good, and most likely better, than any of the hobbyists that end up buying their offspring.

And ethically, I think producing c.b. hardy veileds in great numbers is a much better option that what we had in the past, which was to import chameleons in great numbers and watch 90% of them die in the first year.

Shea Peterson

 

[rshewfel]

Breeding veileds has been completed dialed in, and that's why you see wholesale prices so low, b/c of this breeding success, and these breeders supplies hobbyists with a much needed, hardy, c.b. chameleon. That rubs you the wrong way apparently. Remember the days before c.b. veildeds? Wild caught chameleons on deaths doorstep. Of course you do, you've bred 25 wild caught species, and you know how instrumental those c.b. veileds were to the hobby and dialing in husbandry techniques for all species.

Shea Peterson

Just Curious. What exactly has changed with veileds in the last 20 years? I kept my first veiled that I purchased 20 years ago almost exactly the same way I see most people keeping them today. Also, I don't know about 20 years ago, but probably about 15 years ago, you could purchase veileds from kingsnake and reptiles magazine for $20 ea. in lots of 10.

 

[shea]

Just Curious. What exactly has changed with veileds in the last 20 years? I kept my first veiled that I purchased 20 years ago almost exactly the same way I see most people keeping them today. Also, I don't know about 20 years ago, but probably about 15 years ago, you could purchase veileds from kingsnake and reptiles magazine for $20 ea. in lots of 10.

Not exactly sure what you mean, or what you thought I meant, but to answer your questions, nothing. I don't think anything has changed in the last 20 years. I bought my first group of veileds in 1995 for $35/piece. ...if you thought I was implying that breeding veileds was a recent success story, I was referring to the early 1990s. Ha.

Shea Peterson

 

[rshewfel]

Ok, yeah. I sounded like you were implying that there had been huge advances in chameleon husbandry, in recent years. My fault. As far as I can tell, the only thing that has changed is that a larger variety of feeders are available.

Anyway, I agree with your third post. However, your first 2 post come off as rather offensive. I have never seen Carl post anything that I think would warrant personal attacks.

 

[shea]

Ok, yeah. I sounded like you were implying that there had been huge advances in chameleon husbandry, in recent years. My fault. As far as I can tell, the only thing that has changed is that a larger variety of feeders are available.

Anyway, I agree with your third post. However, your first 2 post come off as rather offensive. I have never seen Carl post anything that I think would warrant personal attacks.

Well I dunno, the post I responded to is a clear shot at Northwest Zoological, who have been breeding veileds forever. That was a pretty misleading post.

Carl has been around forever, and he probably doesn't know who I am, but I still have the CiN issues of his birth announcements from years and years ago.

Shea Peterson

 

[rshewfel]

Well I dunno, the post I responded to is a clear shot at Northwest Zoological, who have been breeding veileds forever. That was a pretty misleading post.

Carl has been around forever, and he probably doesn't know who I am, but I still have the CiN issues of his birth announcements from years and years ago.

Shea Peterson

I was just completely missing the point of your first 2 posts. Somehow I missed your third post before I initially replied. I do agree with your third post. Also I don't think Carl should have pointed out a particular business as an example.

 

[CarlC]

No offense taken. Most of us are adults here and can take some tough talk. Atleast I hope we can.

First let me state that yes I was totally wrong in pointing out a particular ad. I shouldn't have done that. I know better.

My concerns come from seeing so many little babies packed in little cubes at shows being sold by people who can't even tell a prospective buyer the proper husbandry of what they are selling. "Go over to that table and buy the small crickets and then go to that table and buy a light. Great you already have an empty aquarium at home. You are all set." They are treated like a commodity instead of a living creature. Not every vendor is like this but it is pretty common.

At the end of the day I could really care less what people have to say about what I think. If speaking my mind about the welfare of these animals bothers someone they should probably just block me. Its that simple.

As for advance's in breeding calyptratus yes there have been. It wasn't all that many years ago the myth that if they are not bred by a certain age they would die egg bound. Another example is food intake by females can be adjusted to limit cycling thus giving the female a break from a continued egg production and a longer life. Please correct me if I'm wrong but this wasn't common knowledge when we started out was it guys.

Carl

 

[Chameleon Company]

All that may be, but the quick-sale artists have been around since the beginning of time, and always will be. Meanwhile, the difficulties of chameleon husbandry guarantee that those that produce the most also have fundamentally sound husbandry. That is the nature of this beast.

The huge difference now, vs. days of yore, is that the buyer has 100 times better access to be able to self-educate, and that is no exaggeration. Lots of chameleons at better prices is hardly the result of any "chameleon mill". Frankly, it is the result of a heck of a lot of hard work, and smart prudent decisions.

And if you don't want to pay $35 for a calyptratus, or $125 for a pardalis, you can most certainly find folks out there who will charge you twice that ..... ........ and they will laugh all the way to the bank.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Just Curious. What exactly has changed with veileds in the last 20 years? I kept my first veiled that I purchased 20 years ago almost exactly the same way I see most people keeping them today. Also, I don't know about 20 years ago, but probably about 15 years ago, you could purchase veileds from kingsnake and reptiles magazine for $20 ea. in lots of 10.

In response to this post, and a couple of others,10-12 years ago a 4" veiled at a show could be sold for $85 -100, and many such at one show. That they were cheaper in the '90's is no different than pardalis being cheaper then, as it was all before export quotas kicked-in hard in about '98.

I also have every CiN journal ever published .........

Talk about change ....... Ardi told me in 2001 that I would never succeed in the quantity production of pardalis. 12 years later, it is the only way that I have paid my bills since then.

Much has changed for the better. And there is not a mill in sight.

 

[fluxlizard]

The food thing was. I was playing with feeding lots of veggies and far fewer insects to try and slow egg production. I knew others who reduced feeding altogether.

The thing they do now keeping females at low temps to slow it down is something that was new to me prior to coming on the forums a few years ago. So was the low d3 thing- 20 years ago I was using d3 every feeding. 10 years ago I still was.

My concerns come from seeing so many little babies packed in little cubes

I hate that too. I hate it with lizards generally. As a breeder it steams me that I have to compete price wise with people who sell stuff right out of the egg. A lot of the fault though, like I mentioned earlier in this thread, can be spread around on this one. Consumers shop price over quality 99% of the time, and dealers give them what they want, distrubutors give dealers what they want, and breeders give distributors what they want. I won't do it- nothing leaves my care until I feel it will thrive- for me it means buyers are always happy with the quality of my lizards so I never have problems selling them, but it also means a lot smaller profit margin.

 

[rshewfel]

As for advance's in breeding calyptratus yes there have been. It wasn't all that many years ago the myth that if they are not bred by a certain age they would die egg bound. Another example is food intake by females can be adjusted to limit cycling thus giving the female a break from a continued egg production and a longer life. Please correct me if I'm wrong but this wasn't common knowledge when we started out was it guys.

Carl

The rumor that the females would die was definitely around when I bought my fist veiled in 94, but it was on its way out. I don't remember ever thinking it was true. I'm sure some shops still tell customers it is true. It is funny how rumors have a hard time dying. Did you guys know superworms eat their way out of the stomach. I heard this one a couple weeks ago.

As far as the slowing of the cycle by reducing feeding. This is new to me. When you mentioned it to me a couple weeks ago, with your cristatus, it was the first time hearing it. I have read a little bit about this since them. So this developed, or at least wasn't very common, within the last 10 years. I will experiment with this with my new chameleons.